Splitting the list?
chris_connery at macmail.ucsc.edu
Wed Nov 16 12:30:50 MST 1994
Reply to: RE>Splitting the list?
I stand with Jukka Laari in advocating non-splitting. I understand the
impetus, though. The list during the last month or so had deteriorated a
lot, along lines previously described, but at least one recent departure
(Tom) might help reverse that. And there are other harbingers of good
developments, like the return of Juan Inigo. I was glad that the LTV
debate went on, even though I deleted a lot of it without reading it. I
learned a lot from the Donna Jones writer, and others who put it in a wider
Marxist context. Lists have rhythms, and the recent descent into nastiness,
trivia, and mind-numbing repetition is par for the course. It needn't
dictate drastic changes, though. Many things should be going on at the same
time, including close readings of texts. More responsible and informational
use of message headers that would allow selective reading and deleting could
help alleviate the swamped feeling.
Date: 11/16/94 10:51 AM
From: marxism at world.std.com
First of all - the style: "sharp language of classics" was mainly aimed at
some public person (politician, ideologist etc). They're about to handle
it. But in some discussion group the situation is radically different. It
isn't argumentation (nor discussion) anymore when one is hitted by a
series of insults. Insulting isn't the way to express disagreement in
marxist circles. Well, at least that's my personal wish.
Secondly, Louis Proyect wrote that "subdividing the list into topics or
interest groups might be productive and worth experimenting with." Sure,
at least that slow reading group on some classic text of Marx would be
very interesting and productive. But then...
What is marxism, anyway? It isn't a science, so it doesn't have same
rules and norms as the sciences do have. Marxism is more sort of
philosophy aiming to provide us general philosophical principles of human
reality (sort of what its like -explanations) and some ethical principles
according which to change our reality. These principles of course do
change every now and then, according our human reality.
Now, if the marxism-list would be divided into a group of special
interest lists, then what's left of marxism as sort of general discursive
process? How the (specially marxist) political will will be structured,
if there's no general theoretico-political discussion?
Soviets knew very well that one has to know a bit of everything (besides
one's own special knowledge). So they (I mean scholars, researchers,
scientists, academics, intellectuals) had quite extensive Bildung. (What's
that in English? Education+ethics+morals?) And that's something to
esteem. So, as much I've disliked good old Soviet marxism
(marxism-leninism) because of its intellectual dishonesty and dogmatism,
I've esteemed the strategy of Bildung it spreaded. There's lot to learn
in it, I believe.
If marxism-list would be divided for example for cultural analysts,
economists, historians, philosophers, politologists and sociologists,
then we will narrow our intellectual interests and our field of vision
Let's face it: among others, economists and sociologists were unable to
handle the fall of Soviet empire - we failed to grasp what was going on
in the 1980s.
(Personally I'm not very interested in the problems of economists - I
like to believe that labour theory of value is sort of philosophical
premise that doesn't have to be proved empirically valid or true: there
are conceptions that show us the way, but that can't be tested in their
own discourse or context - but I would consider myself very uncivilized
if I haven't read the basic writings of Marx on the critique of political
I'd say, that in the theory and analysis of ideology as well as in the
cultural studies/analysis there are dimensions that ought to be known
and understood by all of us who consider themselves as marxists. (That's
one lesson of so-called post-structuralism/modernism.) There ain't no way
of going back to 19th century: we can't understand our world with
conceptual tools that do not know anything about, for example, modern
electronic media or, say, "psychic dynamism" taught us by psychoanalysis.
The good old problem is still with us: how to explain the fact that
people are acting against their own "objective interests"?
Oh, now I have to cut my crap. Hopefully that was sensible and
Hope I can read your discussion on LTV and Lenin and Kautsky in the next
year, too, without subscribing to half a dozen lists.
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 20:21:59 +0200 (EET)
From: Jukka Laari <jlaari at tukki.jyu.fi>
Subject: Splitting the list?
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