Juan and BS
ab975 at main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca
Wed Jun 28 02:55:56 MDT 1995
On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Justin Schwartz wrote:
> (yes, I am being provocative). I say if this id the bourgeois way of
> thinking, sign me up for it. It's certainly an improvement over the
> medieval way of thinking in which the ideas of the master are received as
> holy writ and immune for critical investigation.
You can continue all you want to misinterpret me, but the real
fact of the matter is that you don't like my questioning of the presence
of 'anti-marx' marxists here.
What I am saying is not that Marx's work is Holy Writ, received
from the Mount (as to the accuracy of which you would really care), but
that if you guys are going to make broad statments about how Marx is
wrong, Marx is outdated, etc., then the onus is on YOU to prove it -- NOT
Karl Marx. As the saying goes, "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary
Simply hiding behind your 'erudition' without getting down to
brass tacks is no more than any bourgeois liberal does when he dismisses
Marx with a wave of the hand as someone, who even if he were relevant
once, is definitely 'passe'' today... I've seen little here yet to
convince me that this is not substantially the case for those who consider
Marx's opus to be fatally flawed or incomplete.
(Actually this is an
> insult to the middle ages, where nothing was immune from critical
> investigation, even if certain forms of expression had to be maintained.)
??? I suppose this guy's never heard of the Holy Inquisition...
Ya, Scholasticsm: High-water mark of human Reason...
Sure, scholars could hide their real meaning behind much
theological B.S., but this is FAR from 'nothing being immune from critical
investigation'... That you would see this period as being positive is
> A number of people havbe pointed out taht we can't be so openmined that
> our brains fall out, that we take certain things for granted--we won't
> consider astology, flat-earthism, or Nazi ideology. Nor indeed would any
> of us really consider libertarianism or some more ordinary rightw in
> doctrine exceppt as a target. Fair enough.
> But to take this attitude into the discussion of Marxism itself, or more
> broadly socialism, would be fatal.
Let me point out that the fact of the matter is that I was
responding to people who didn't see the point or even validity of
dialectical materialism, or who are admirers of Ayn Rand, or even who
don't believe in anything marxist -- except that they are 'socialist' too.
Utopian socialism -- which Marx's theory is a criticism of in
large part -- is what is 'fatally flawed' here...
It would maen the end of any pretence
> at considering our activity to have anything in common with scientific
> inquiry. "Marx said it, I believe it, and taht settles it." On top of
> everything else it would be boring. What would be walk about? "Jim, I;m
> so glad the labor theory of value explains the inevitable fall of
> capitalism." "Justin, I am too," Maybe we coukld fulminate about the
That's not what I've been saying at all, but at this point I
don't think that really matters to you...
> I have actually read a good chunk of Marxist literature that proceeded on
> just this principle--Soviet Marxism
I say it again. That's not what I was saying, but what YOU are
saying I said.
> Maybe Jim isn't a Stalinist, who's to say waht that means. But the
> intellectual culture he seems to want is one of Stalinist homogeneity. I
> asy it's spinich and I say to hell with it.
And I'll say it again, fool, that that's NOT what I'm about here.
But I will state flat out again, that the intrusion of bourgeois
thinking masquerading as marxist thought will indeed debase what can be
accomplished in this list. And I'll state *AGAIN* (some people require
reading glasses here) that ANYONE CAN WRITE ANYTHING HERE AS FAR AS I AM
IT'S JUST TOO BAD FOR MARXISM THAT THEY DO...
Jim Jaszewski <jjazz at freenet.hamilton.on.ca>
WWW homepage: <http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/~ab975/Profile.html>
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