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Fri Jun 30 11:54:09 MDT 1995

with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:53:27 -0600
Message-Id: <sff3e5b7.098 at EMAIL.STATE.UT.US>
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:53:52 -0600
To: marxism at
Subject:  Shoah [nazi holocaust]

Come on people, don't over-polarize, I think you're really all on the
same track here.  Jim Devine and Nello and Matt D. and Jerry all make
very good points.  Surely reality is too complicated for any one post
or one aspect of nazism or anti-Semitism to cover the full picture.

When Nello says anti-Semitism pre-existed Nazism, he's right, but
that is not the same as saying it was only a tool of the Nazis.
Anti-S was surely a multi-faceted thing, with multiple reasons and
effects.  I know that one reason the Nazis came to power as a
political party was because anti-S was very popular in Germany.

Did nazis use anti-S rhetoric and propaganda to persuade and justify
specific actions?  Yes.  Were they sincerely hating Jews and
believing their own anti-S rhetoric?  Probably, but who could tell if
some were cynics - they still acted the same.

Did the popularity of anti-S make it an obvious choice [if one were
detachedly planning ahead] for some people who wanted to gain power
in that time and place?  Of course.  Or, did they [as part and
product of that anti-S] truly rabidly believe that crap?  Why not

They also could have been anti-working class organizations partly
because they were against any competition for their own power.  This
included telling the big capitalists to go f--- themselves, after the
Nazis got enough power to do so.

What did they want all that power for?  So they could do whatever
they wanted, I guess. What did they want, I'm not sure.

I certainly don't claim to have captured the whole picture either,
but maybe reading the books that Jerry recommends would help.

Jim Devine writes:
>>It's absolutely true that the Nazis were anti-semitic. But it's
>>often forgotten (especially by the bourgeois media) that they
>>were also anti-working class, banning unions, working-class
>>political parties, free speech, free press, etc.

Nello writes:

>Nazis reached the power with stong aid of german finance and
industrial>world to kill>Weimar repubblic and destroy working-class
organizations.>Antisemitism was an over-structural aspect of nazism,
already present in>german culture, used to eliminate intellectuals
and opponents and to bond>german people under>raving myth of  upper

Matt D. writes:
Anti-Semitism was a necessary condition of the Holocaust in a way
that other vectors of bigotry and oppression were not, and the
extermination  of the Jews should not be "collapsed" in the fashion
of "well, lots of  people died, including many Jewish people."

As for the notion that anti-Semitism was in some way not a very
basic, core  element of Nazism, but rather grafted on as a political

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