Ireland and Orange

KARL CARLILE pad at iol.ie
Tue Nov 14 13:06:06 MST 1995


<My original remarks
Dear Magnus:

In your correspondence you remark that:

"But he (ian Paisley) isn't a Nazi. Classic
Orangism involves incorporating trade unions
members into the Orange lodges etc, not
smashing trade unions. Orangism depends on
the consent of the protestant working class,
expressed not unimportantly through the
ballot box. This has always given socialists,
catholic + protestant, room to organise,
especially now, when economic circumstances
have weakened the hold of unionism over
protestant workers."

To claim that "Orangeism depends on the consent of the protestant working
class, expressed not unimportantly through the ballot box" misses a
significant point.It is not a matter of consent of the working class but
Orangeism as a bourgeois form actively seeking to undermine and disarm the
"Protestant" working class in Ireland to the point where it lacks a
revolutionary leadership. In this way it share a common feature with many
bourgeois and petit bourgeois movements:the struggle to undermine and disarm
the working class as an independently organized political force. This is the
ideological and political function of Orangeism in Ireland, The Democratic
Party in the United States and the SACP in South Africa.
           **************

Louis N Proyect response to my remarks:

Louis: You group Ian Paisley, William Clinton and the late Joe Slovo 
together politically. This takes my breath away. Are you an indepedent 
sectarian or did you learn this sort of nuttiness from some Maoist or 
Trotskyite cult leader in Ireland?>  


Louis:

Your very stimulating and original comments took my breath away(?).

Perhaps I am being a little too kind grouping Paisley and Clinton together
since the latter,unlike Paisley, has been responbsible for much of the
bloodshed spilled in Somalia due to the crass interference of the U.S
military there. No it is true that Paisley's hands are not as crimson as
Bill's.The oppression that a Clinton imposes is vast global scale unlike a
Paisley whose power base is locally confined.

As for Slovo. You only have to study the evidence to learn how sectarian the
SACP was in relation to the forced imprisonment and torture of many of its
political opponents within the struggle against apartheid. Paul Trewhela and
others have had the courage and tenaciousness to document this evidence. It
must also be remembered that Joe was a trenchent supporter of the late uncle
Joe of the Soviet Union who was not unknown for his sectarianism.

Incidentally I am not an independent  sectarian nor did I learn "this" from
a Maoist or Troskyite cult leader. It is  unfortunate that you advance
threadworn rhetoric for argument. Indeed your attitude towards what I stand
for is sectarian.

                  Yours etc.,
                            Karl Carlile





Dear Magnus:

In your correspondence you remark that:

"But he (ian Paisley) isn't a Nazi. Classic
Orangism involves incorporating trade unions
members into the Orange lodges etc, not
smashing trade unions. Orangism depends on
the consent of the protestant working class,
expressed not unimportantly through the
ballot box. This has always given socialists,
catholic + protestant, room to organise,
especially now, when economic circumstances
have weakened the hold of unionism over
protestant workers."

To claim that "Orangeism depends on the consent of the protestant working
class, expressed not unimportantly through the ballot box" misses a
significant point.It is not a matter of consent of the working class but
Orangeism as a bourgeois form actively seeking to undermine and disarm the
"Protestant" working class in Ireland to the point where it lacks a
revolutionary leadership. In this way it share a common feature with many
bourgeois and petit bourgeois movements:the struggle to undermine and disarm
the working class as an independently organized political force. This is the
ideological and political function of Orangeism in Ireland, The Democratic
Party in the United States and the SACP in South Africa.
Yours etc.,
           Kaarl Carlile   



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