Matt, Steve, Ralph, and the whole Damned thing

Steve McDonald MCDONALDS at
Mon Nov 20 22:17:10 MST 1995

From: Jim Jaszewski <jjazz at>

>> (?male) Marxists should have thick skins perhaps for themselves, 
>> but the issue is what about other visitors? There are probably many 
>> selection factors leading to the marked underrepresentation of women
>> on this list, and we should not flagellate ourselves about all of them.
>> But where something can be done let us try to do it. This heavily
>> gender and genital orientated type of abuse is quite a turn off, but
>> probably differentially so for women who are not acculturated to 
>> be desentised to this type of power struggle.

>	_This_ is how the problem should be discussed... That we would be
>quietly `alienating' women _should_ be one of the major concerns here. 
>David McInerney also pointed out that gays will be turning away from
>marxism if they keep hearing this stuff -- however, it should be
>_analyzed_ (excuse the pun), and not condemned, in what comes across as
>a petty and prissy puritanism. 

I agree that Chris Buford's discussion is tremendously well-said.  I also
agree that he says things better than I do.  I do not, however, agree that my
condemnation of hostile totalitarian discursive methods is necessarily a form
of prissy puritanism.  I have a feeling we're not going to agree on this, and
that's fine, although your defensive posturing is disturbing.  Lighten up, I'm
not John Calvin.  And if I was, you'd have no cause for alarm.

Listen, I started this because Ralph Dumain launched a vicious attack on one of
our colleagues because Burns is a Jesuit.  He used language that was intended
to hatefully make Burns go away.  (Fortunately for us, he did not go away.)  I
never criticised his Ralph's diction, per se.  I don't care that he says fuck,
but I do care about his message:  go away, die, burn, you rotten creature. 
Obviously, there is no worth to that.    There is no political value to the
sentiment and no practical value for Burns to go away.   He didn't, so the good
guys win in the end.  

Now, I'd like to instead engage R. Peter Burns and hear more of what he has to
say.  I agree with Louis that his being here is better than lucky charms (er,
stars) .  I also agree with Matt D that beer would be a better medium for our
conversation, so I've got one open.  I hope y'all are similarly lucky.  So, R.
Peter Burns, tell us more, but tell it quick because I fear the Dumain this way

Steve McDonald 

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