quebec referemdun

Jim Jaszewski jjazz at
Sat Oct 21 22:30:02 MDT 1995

On Sat, 21 Oct 1995, Ryan Daum wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Oct 1995, Jim Jaszewski wrote:
> > 	I too remember many particulars of the '70's movement -- and
> > today's is thoroughly reactionary in comparison.  What we have here is not
> > the social democratic movement of yesteryear, but a completely petit
> > bourgeois attempt to cynically capture power for narrow ends...
> A) Completely petit-bourgeois is an unqualified statement.

	Unqualified?  That Bouchard the chevalier in shining armor was a
Conservative cabinet minister in the government of the Yankee stooge and
traitor Mulroney?  Think the leopard has changed his spots?  That Parizeau
is a fat, hedonistic bourgeois economist with obvious rightwing
authoritarian tendencies?  How about LeHire and the Conseil du Patronat du
Que'bec? I suppose they don't qualify as petit-bourgeois...

	I don't see Gilles Vigneault, Diane Dufresne and Robert Charlebois
leading the working masses of Montre'al Est, with a thousand Fleurs de Lys
flying, down Sherbrooke Est to any humungous rallies at the Ar`ene Claude
Robillard or Stade Olympique on Pie IX...

	Jesus Christ, but these cynical bastards are running this LIKE A
PROVINCIAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN!!  Excuse me, but when a people want
independence, it's _pretty damned clear_ that they do!  Most people can
barely be bothered to be interested!  Even if they win, they will never be
able to declare a clear victory...  Nothing but Evil will come of this..!

 While the
> leadership is barely even social democratic anymore, there are real
> reasons why, for example, the Quebec labour movement is behind the
> PQ/BQ.

	Maybe because they're stupid?  How about: they're as bureaucratic
and conservative as the union leaders who support the NDP mis-leadership
in the rest of Canada??

	Louis Laberge would be proud...

  I don't support their policy, and wish they'd put their voices
> behind a more left wing campaign for self-determination, but it is true
> that they see themselves as getting nothing out of federalism but Paul
> Martin's Neo-Liberalism, English Canadian AND American imperialism.

	Like they're ever going to get away from that.

> believe, and I think rightly, that a nation state under the control of
> Quebecois will jar the North American market and provide an opening for
> a struggle against neo-liberalism -- at least in Quebec.

	I think you are dreaming in technicolor.  More likely the IMF and
a SAP in the future of an independent Que'bec under the leadership of
these businessmen.  God help the rest of us...

> Already the PQ/BQ has been forced to promise the working class certain
> things after the referendum.  It has promised better labour laws, lower
> taxes, and maintenance of social programmes.

	As I've mentioned earlier:  I myself didn't just fall off the
turnip truck, and I wouldn't put much `truck' in such obvious *lies*.  How
come you're so credulous..?

> This is a hell of a lot more than the federal government has offered.

	Hey -- I'll promise you anything too if you'll vet MY ascension to
power..!!  (I've got a bridge over the Fraser, and one over Burrard inlet
too, if you're interested -- the one over the Bow I'll throw in for free)

> > 	This time around, my main concern is for the Rights of the
> > aboriginal peoples in that geographic area -- and the present leadership
> > of Que'bec shows every sign of heading to a confrontation with disastrous
> > results.  I have _NO_ faith in Parizeau or even Bouchard (a former
> > Conservative minister under the odious Mulroney)!!  Those in the
> > leadership who maintain the `vision' of Le'vesque are being accused of
> > being spies for the French government!
> I respect your concern for the rights of aboriginal peoples -- I think
> this is the _key_ issue, and they reason why we _can't_ support the
> PQ/BQ.  But it is no reason not to support independence and
> self-determination as principles, as powers, for the Quebec working class.

	And what makes you think I don't support that?  Or maybe you have
trouble hearing me through your rose-colored glasses...

> You _cannot_ counterpose the two peoples without getting yourself into
> hot water.

	Like I said -- we are going to Hell in a hand-basket...

> What we need is a regrouped and restructured left in Canada and Quebec
> which does not subordinate the rights of the Quebecois to any agenda.  It
> does not say: oh, wait, hold on, Quebecers, we need socialism first.  Nor
> does it say: oh, please don't separate, we need you to fight American
> imperialism.  It would say: let's be comrades against capitalism, and
> being comrades, I respect your right to self-determination and
> independence and I hope you respect the rights of natives in that process.

	I'm all for the above -- but that isn't what's going on here.

> > 	The Prime Mover in this case being the same kind of petit
> > bourgeois nationalism you'll find in any squalid east-european country...
> The Prime Mover here is, like everywhere else, resentment against
> neo-liberal policies, against capitalist globalization, exploitation,
> de-industrialization.  We cannot abstractly say: independence is wrong
> because its leadership is wrong.  The independence movement is not
> socialist or social democratic because a) the socialist movement
> worldwide is in shambles, and cannot even be conceived of as an
> alternative for more people -- it is our duty to fix that by getting
> together! and very important: b) the "socialist" movement in Canada has
> more than often made stupid statements like the CPC article that came
> over here, and demanded that Quebecois subordinate their interests to the
> "higher purposes" of popular front Canadian nationalism.  (i.e. support
> for "loyal capital" in the case of the NDP's policies)

	I agree that the CPC is full of stupid people...

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