WHAT HAPPENED IN INDONESI
luigi.candreva at altair.it
Fri Apr 5 03:28:00 MST 1996
I'm reposting the following, slighty edited, as it returnerd
undelivered to my mail-box.
HA> In order to be able to defer, or
HA> subordinate, you must be able to separate, to understand
HA> clearly what is what. The question of subordination is
HA> linked to the question of separation.
HA> What we are talking
HA> here is subordinating the immediate interests to the
HA> long term ones. And that is what Marxism is all about.
HA> Subordination does not mean to give those interests up.
HA> It means to always take care of the long term interests
HA> of the proletariat as a WHOLE in defending or
HA> advancing those interests.
You like to avoid direct questions, but just speak about
I'm sorry, maybe for my bad English, I cannot follow your
sophistry. But, also following your talk I rather think that
you are presenting a Menshevist position on the National
The Theses on the Eastern question (fourth Congress of
the Comintern, November 1922) declare pretty clearly:
"Equally harmful is the attempt to stay on the borders of the
the fight for the more urgent and daily interests [can we
assume that they are the "immediate interests" of A.O.?] of
the working class in name of the 'national unity' and the
'social peace' with the democratic bourgeoisie" and the
Communists "organize the workers and peasant masses in the the
fight of their own particular class interests" (my
The Theses on National and Colonial question (1920)
"all the politics of the [Communist] International on the
national and colonial question must concentrate above all on
the approach between the workers and the toilers of all
nations and all countries for the joint struggle for the
overthrown of the bourgeoisie and the big landlords. Because
only the joint struggle will gain the victory over the
capitalism. Without this overthrown is impossible to abolish
oppression and the juridical inequality of a Nation" [BTW this
is the main concept of the Permanent Revolution]
NEVER did Lenin or the Communist International say that
you must "subordinate" (althoug temporarly) the class
interests to the national intersets (which the Comintern
called "so called" national interests).
In the East Stalin and Mao resurrected the
Menshevist "theory" of two stage revolution in order to
manipulate with the national bourgeoisies to whom they sold
out the need of the socialist revolution in the oppressed
Indonesia has been one of the clearest examples.
Furthemore (as in the case of the Vacuum Petroleum) the
workers were obliged to give up their immediate class
interests directly to the American imperialists (and probably
there are a lot of other cases that I don't know right now).
Furthemore you have to paint in "antimperialist" coulours
anticommunist dictators that used to slaughter the workers
mouvement (as did Sukharno in 1948) in order to capitulate to
them. If you want I've a lot more to say about Lenin on
National question, which exposes Stalin's and Mao's
menshevism. But a theory must be tested in practice and in the
field of class struggle the "subordination of class interests
to the national interests" has costed hundred of thousands of
workers and peasant lives in the so called "Third World", and
A.O follows saying:
HA> Reforms are a by-product
HA> of struggle for the long term aims of the proletariat
Well said (without irony): this is, virtually word by
word, a sentence of L. D. Bronstein (as you prefer to call
him), better known as comrade Trotsky, the founder of the Red
Army and defeater of the Whites, along with 14 armies of the
imperialist countries intervened in the civil war after that
the Bolsheviks, under the leadership of Lenin and Trotsky,
Probably quoting Trotsky you are on the road of
wisdom.... Who knows?
But I would like a comment by you on what you think about:
1) A couple of hudreds German communists that Stalin delivered
to Nazi germany in 1939-41.
2) The Chinese embassy that closed doors in front of leftists
refugees that tried to fly Pinochet' terror in 1973.
And answer to the CONCRETE questions on Stalin/Mao
(Answers by Godenas, Quispe, Gina, or somebody else from the
gang of four is equally welcomed)
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