This computer kills fascists: 12 (fwd)

Luciano Dondero DOND001 at
Fri Apr 19 12:24:50 MDT 1996

>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:32:15 -0400
>From: tallpaul at (tallpaul)
>Per I. Mathisen, the proposer for the USENET group
>"soc.politics.marxism" asked me to write on the new attack on the
>group by the cybernazis. A post intercepted from Milton Kleim
>(the proposer of "" and leader of the Aryan
>Internet Corps) to the nazi STORMFRONT mailing list shows the new
>cybernazi attack and directly links it to Marxist opposition to
>Kleim's attempt to get a group devoted to the whip-up-the-lynch-
>mobs skinhead music established on the internet. A copy of
>Kleim's post to STORMFRONT is included below, just above the
>formal CALL FOR VOTES (CFV) of the Marxism group.
>Let me explain a bit of the history of the dispute on the
>internet, and why your vote in favor of "soc.politics.marxism" is
>necessary to defeat the new cybernazi effort.
>At present, the cybernazis have some six groups in the USENET
>"alt" hierarchy. But other intercepted cybernazi documents showed
>they wanted to get established in the more respected and more
>widely carried "rec" hierarchy. To do this, they proposed that
>the "" group be established.
>Anarchist, socialist, and anti-hate net citizens opposed the
>cybernazi skinhead group and called for people to VOTE NO. Per
>and his friends played a major role in this campaign.
>The cybernazis immediately claimed to represent nothing more than
>an absolute belief in "freedom of speech" and maintained that
>USENET rules stated that people should not oppose any news group
>on political grounds. Numbers of overwhelming white, male,
>economically privileged, conservative libertarians joined this
>so-called free speech effort. They proclaimed they had "nothing
>to do" with the nazis but urged people to vote for the nazi group
>in order to "oppose censorship."
>Nobody was censored, nor were the nazis prevented from posting a
>single article. (In my personal view this was an unfortunate
>truth, but that is the way that the internet functions.) All of
>the nazi messages could easily have been posted to the other six
>nazi-oriented groups in the "alt" hierarchy. Even internet-savy
>members of groups as politically divergent as the various
>Trotskyist organizations to the Anti-Defamation League did not
>call for the nazis to be kicked out of cyberspace or formally
>deprived of their right to post messages in the "alt" news
>The campaign for people to VOTE NO on swept
>the globe with people in numerous countries joining the
>discussion in an effort even Milton Kleim called "UNPRECEDENTED
>in internet history." This was probably the most accurate
>sentence Kleim ever posted to the net.
>But now of course there is a different group to be voted on:
>Now, "suddenly" Kleim and the cybernazis have put the issue of
>absolute freedom of speech behind them, rediscovered Jew-
>Bolshevism, and forgotten the "A.C.L.U." Of course, for those
>familiar with nazis history this is neither new nor surprising.
>But the STORMFRONT list to which Kleim posted his message has
>upwards of 400 names on it. If the subscribers to the list all
>support Kleim, then this is a 400-vote bloc that will oppose Per
>and soc.politics.marxism to punish the group's antifascist
>efforts. In order for a USENET group to get established, it must
>win 2/3 of the votes cast where all internet users get a vote.
>This also means that soc.politics.marxism needs another 800 votes
>just to comfortably offset the possible STORMFRONT bloc vote.
>And workers revolution will likely return to Russia before the
>libertarians who supported white-power music also vote "YES" on a
>Marxism group.
>The official CFV on "soc.politics.marxism" is included below. It
>tells you how to vote on the group and what exactly the group is
>                                  What You Can Do
>First you can vote in favor of soc.politics.marxism.
>Many of you will of course do this anyway. Others will now want
>to support soc.politics.marxism as a *real* free speech issue,
>especially since it is targeted by the cybernazis in revenge for
>the principled antifascism by Per.
>But YES votes from the few people who read this series are not
>sufficient to raise an additional 800 votes. To do this we all
>need to get out the word of what is happening. This can be done
>if you will inform friends of what is happening. Please feel free
>to post this notice to discussion lists you are on *if
>appropriate* to the list. Also, feel free to modify this in any
>way you wish if you think you can do a better job than I of
>explaining the issues. (Just kill my name as the author if you do
>*Do not* however modify the CFV in any way. Such things are
>considered "vote fraud" by the USENET vote takers and may
>invalidate the vote.
>|From: bb748 at (Milton Kleim)
>|To: stormfront-l at
>|Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:02:16 -0400
>|Subject: SF: soc.politics.marxism
>|Dear Comrades:
>|The Bolsheviks have posted a Call for Votes for their proposed
>|news group, soc.culture.marxism.
>|As some of you are aware, the "soc" hierarchy is not intended
>|for purely political discussions.  It is for social issues.
>|The Bolsheviks were in the forefront of opposing our news group,
>|, not only on the ground of "racism," but
>|also on the pretext that it didn't belong in the "rec" hierarchy
>|because it allegedly would |deal with politics instead of music.
>|Well, it's time to pay the Commies back.
>|I urge you to vote NO on soc.politics.marxism.  Please fill out
>|this ballot, and send it to the vote taker.  Thanks!
>|-- Milton
>                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
>                 moderated group soc.politics.marxism
>Newsgroups line:
>soc.politics.marxism    Karl Marx and his legacy in theory and
>practice. (Moderated)
>Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 29 Apr 1996.
>This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
>about the proposal should be directed to the proponent.
>Proponent: Per I Mathisen <perim at>
>Votetaker: Brennan Price <gt0670e at>
>The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the UseNet
>newsgroups to which it is posted including
>news.announce.newgroups and the votetaker.  An official copy will
>also be sent to the Marxism mail list after it is posted in
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>majordomo at if you want information
>about the list.
>RATIONALE: soc.politics.marxism
>There is currently no newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of
>Marxist philosophy and politics. Such debate has long taken place
>in the "Marxism" mailing list and occasionally on the newsgroup
>alt.politics.socialism.trotsky. The "Marxism" list has currently
>well over 300 subscribers and carries about 30-50 posts a day.
>The above-mentioned newsgroup carries about 10-20 posts a day and
>is no place for serious discussion since it is haunted by
>irrelevant crossposts, off-topic conversations and extensive
>flaming. Neither are moderated.
>The reason the "Marxism" mailing list is insufficient is because
>many feel 30-40, often quite long, mails dropping into one's
>mailbox is too much, and would prefer the quicker alternative of
>browsing a newsgroup. A newsgroup is also more accessible for
>The soc.politics.* hierarchy was chosen because it fits well with
>our intention of a newsgroup for discussion about marxism as
>political, sociological and historical theory and as a means of
>changing the world.
>CHARTER: soc.politics.marxism
>This group is intended as a moderated forum for the discussion of
>marxism and political topics in connection to marxism. This
>includes, but is not restricted to, the political and
>philosophical theories of Marx, the relevance and appliance of
>Marx's theories in the modern world and the theories and
>activities of Marxist political movements and parties both today
>and in the past.
>Moderation Policy:
>The moderators reserve the right to reject any articles submitted
>to soc.politics.marxism that are insulting, using more than 1/4
>quotation, off-topic or not at all related to marxism. Crossposts
>will not be tolerated unless it is an announcement of relevance
>or importance to the newsgroup.
>MODERATOR INFO: soc.politics.marxism
>Moderator: Per I Mathisen <perim at>
>Contact address: marxism-request at
>Submission address: marxism at
>The RFD stated that Chris Faatz <cfaatz at> would be
>the moderator for this newsgroup. He decided that this work would
>be too time-consuming for him, and therefore had to pass the
>responsibility to somebody else. For the time being, this
>responsibility has been taken by proponent of the newsgroup.
>Erase everything above the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" line and erase
>everything below the "END OF BALLOT" line.  Do not erase anything
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>Basically, remove everything except the ballot - we have to save
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>Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group,
>place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or
>against it.  If you don't want to vote on a particular group,
>just leave the space blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the
>columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.
>Then mail the ballot to:    gt0670e at
>Just replying to this message should work.
>Quick voting checklist:
>1) Fill in the ballot form shown below.
>2) Delete the rest of the CFV from your reply.
>3) Make sure your reply goes to gt0670e at
>========== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line
>The only official sources of this ballot are Calls |     FIRST CALL FOR
>For Votes cross-posted to news.announce.newgroups  |
>or e-mailed from the votetaker.  Official ballots  |   OFFICIAL USENET
>are distributed blank.  Failure to use an official |
>ballot significantly increases the chances that
>the vote-counting software will be unable to process your vote.  Beware.
>Give your real name here:
>If you do not give your real name, your vote will be rejected.
>[Your Vote]  Group (Don't vote on this line--vote below!)
>[ yes     ]
>[  no     ]
>[abstain  ]
>[ cancel  ]
>[         ]  soc.politics.marxism
>============= END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line
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>voter to the votetaker.)
>In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is standard
>operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the violator.
>Anyone who distributes pre-filled ballots or modified copies of this CFV
>commits voting fraud.  While distributing an unmodified CFV is allowed, it
>is strongly discouraged, as the process of redistribution often adds
>to the document that confuse the vote-taking software.  Reference to the
>official CFV in news.announce.newgroups or to a copy mailed directly from
>the votetaker is preferred.
>When in doubt, ask the votetaker.
>--Brennan T. Price, UVV
>  Running UseVote 3.0
--Luciano Dondero--

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