This computer kills fascists: 12 (fwd)

Spoon Collective spoons at jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Sat Apr 20 11:54:22 MDT 1996

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 08:22:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Chegitz Guevara <mluziett at>
To: "Conference" <iww-news at>,
    Russ Roberts <thrush at>,
    Marxism 2 <marxism2 at>,
    DP Commies <bkelly at>, ddolan at,
    emcelroy at, hbarnes at,
    sdabbous at,
    ".FI Press" <fi-press-l at>,
    marxism at,
Subject: This computer kills fascists: 12 (fwd)

Marc, "the Chegitz," Luzietti
personal homepage:
political homepage:

"Susan, when a man's wrestling a leopard in the middle of a pond, he's in
no position to run." -- Cary Grant in  "Bringing Up Baby."

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:32:15 -0400
From: tallpaul <tallpaul at>
To: marxchat at
Subject: This computer kills fascists: 12


Per I. Mathisen, the proposer for the USENET group
"soc.politics.marxism" asked me to write on the new attack on the
group by the cybernazis. A post intercepted from Milton Kleim
(the proposer of "" and leader of the Aryan
Internet Corps) to the nazi STORMFRONT mailing list shows the new
cybernazi attack and directly links it to Marxist opposition to
Kleim's attempt to get a group devoted to the whip-up-the-lynch-
mobs skinhead music established on the internet. A copy of
Kleim's post to STORMFRONT is included below, just above the
formal CALL FOR VOTES (CFV) of the Marxism group.

Let me explain a bit of the history of the dispute on the
internet, and why your vote in favor of "soc.politics.marxism" is
necessary to defeat the new cybernazi effort.

At present, the cybernazis have some six groups in the USENET
"alt" hierarchy. But other intercepted cybernazi documents showed
they wanted to get established in the more respected and more
widely carried "rec" hierarchy. To do this, they proposed that
the "" group be established.

Anarchist, socialist, and anti-hate net citizens opposed the
cybernazi skinhead group and called for people to VOTE NO. Per
and his friends played a major role in this campaign.

The cybernazis immediately claimed to represent nothing more than
an absolute belief in "freedom of speech" and maintained that
USENET rules stated that people should not oppose any news group
on political grounds. Numbers of overwhelming white, male,
economically privileged, conservative libertarians joined this
so-called free speech effort. They proclaimed they had "nothing
to do" with the nazis but urged people to vote for the nazi group
in order to "oppose censorship."

Nobody was censored, nor were the nazis prevented from posting a
single article. (In my personal view this was an unfortunate
truth, but that is the way that the internet functions.) All of
the nazi messages could easily have been posted to the other six
nazi-oriented groups in the "alt" hierarchy. Even internet-savy
members of groups as politically divergent as the various
Trotskyist organizations to the Anti-Defamation League did not
call for the nazis to be kicked out of cyberspace or formally
deprived of their right to post messages in the "alt" news

The campaign for people to VOTE NO on swept
the globe with people in numerous countries joining the
discussion in an effort even Milton Kleim called "UNPRECEDENTED
in internet history." This was probably the most accurate
sentence Kleim ever posted to the net.

But now of course there is a different group to be voted on:

Now, "suddenly" Kleim and the cybernazis have put the issue of
absolute freedom of speech behind them, rediscovered Jew-
Bolshevism, and forgotten the "A.C.L.U." Of course, for those
familiar with nazis history this is neither new nor surprising.
But the STORMFRONT list to which Kleim posted his message has
upwards of 400 names on it. If the subscribers to the list all
support Kleim, then this is a 400-vote bloc that will oppose Per
and soc.politics.marxism to punish the group's antifascist
efforts. In order for a USENET group to get established, it must
win 2/3 of the votes cast where all internet users get a vote.
This also means that soc.politics.marxism needs another 800 votes
just to comfortably offset the possible STORMFRONT bloc vote.

And workers revolution will likely return to Russia before the
libertarians who supported white-power music also vote "YES" on a
Marxism group.

The official CFV on "soc.politics.marxism" is included below. It
tells you how to vote on the group and what exactly the group is

                                  What You Can Do

First you can vote in favor of soc.politics.marxism.

Many of you will of course do this anyway. Others will now want
to support soc.politics.marxism as a *real* free speech issue,
especially since it is targeted by the cybernazis in revenge for
the principled antifascism by Per.

But YES votes from the few people who read this series are not
sufficient to raise an additional 800 votes. To do this we all
need to get out the word of what is happening. This can be done
if you will inform friends of what is happening. Please feel free
to post this notice to discussion lists you are on *if
appropriate* to the list. Also, feel free to modify this in any
way you wish if you think you can do a better job than I of
explaining the issues. (Just kill my name as the author if you do

*Do not* however modify the CFV in any way. Such things are
considered "vote fraud" by the USENET vote takers and may
invalidate the vote.


|From: bb748 at (Milton Kleim)
|To: stormfront-l at
|Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:02:16 -0400
|Subject: SF: soc.politics.marxism
|Dear Comrades:
|The Bolsheviks have posted a Call for Votes for their proposed
|news group, soc.culture.marxism.
|As some of you are aware, the "soc" hierarchy is not intended
|for purely political discussions.  It is for social issues.
|The Bolsheviks were in the forefront of opposing our news group,
|, not only on the ground of "racism," but
|also on the pretext that it didn't belong in the "rec" hierarchy
|because it allegedly would |deal with politics instead of music.
|Well, it's time to pay the Commies back.
|I urge you to vote NO on soc.politics.marxism.  Please fill out
|this ballot, and send it to the vote taker.  Thanks!
|-- Milton



                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                 moderated group soc.politics.marxism

Newsgroups line:
soc.politics.marxism    Karl Marx and his legacy in theory and
practice. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 29 Apr 1996.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposal should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Per I Mathisen <perim at>
Votetaker: Brennan Price <gt0670e at>


The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the UseNet
newsgroups to which it is posted including
news.announce.newgroups and the votetaker.  An official copy will
also be sent to the Marxism mail list after it is posted in
news.announce.newgroups.  Contact
majordomo at if you want information
about the list.

RATIONALE: soc.politics.marxism

There is currently no newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of
Marxist philosophy and politics. Such debate has long taken place
in the "Marxism" mailing list and occasionally on the newsgroup
alt.politics.socialism.trotsky. The "Marxism" list has currently
well over 300 subscribers and carries about 30-50 posts a day.
The above-mentioned newsgroup carries about 10-20 posts a day and
is no place for serious discussion since it is haunted by
irrelevant crossposts, off-topic conversations and extensive
flaming. Neither are moderated.

The reason the "Marxism" mailing list is insufficient is because
many feel 30-40, often quite long, mails dropping into one's
mailbox is too much, and would prefer the quicker alternative of
browsing a newsgroup. A newsgroup is also more accessible for

The soc.politics.* hierarchy was chosen because it fits well with
our intention of a newsgroup for discussion about marxism as
political, sociological and historical theory and as a means of
changing the world.

CHARTER: soc.politics.marxism

This group is intended as a moderated forum for the discussion of
marxism and political topics in connection to marxism. This
includes, but is not restricted to, the political and
philosophical theories of Marx, the relevance and appliance of
Marx's theories in the modern world and the theories and
activities of Marxist political movements and parties both today
and in the past.

Moderation Policy:

The moderators reserve the right to reject any articles submitted
to soc.politics.marxism that are insulting, using more than 1/4
quotation, off-topic or not at all related to marxism. Crossposts
will not be tolerated unless it is an announcement of relevance
or importance to the newsgroup.


MODERATOR INFO: soc.politics.marxism

Moderator: Per I Mathisen <perim at>
Contact address: marxism-request at
Submission address: marxism at

The RFD stated that Chris Faatz <cfaatz at> would be
the moderator for this newsgroup. He decided that this work would
be too time-consuming for him, and therefore had to pass the
responsibility to somebody else. For the time being, this
responsibility has been taken by proponent of the newsgroup.



Erase everything above the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" line and erase
everything below the "END OF BALLOT" line.  Do not erase anything
between these lines and do not change the group names.
Basically, remove everything except the ballot - we have to save
them all on disk.

Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group,
place a YES or NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or
against it.  If you don't want to vote on a particular group,
just leave the space blank.  Don't worry about spacing of the
columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts.

Then mail the ballot to:    gt0670e at
Just replying to this message should work.

Quick voting checklist:
1) Fill in the ballot form shown below.
2) Delete the rest of the CFV from your reply.
3) Make sure your reply goes to gt0670e at

========== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line
The only official sources of this ballot are Calls |     FIRST CALL FOR
For Votes cross-posted to news.announce.newgroups  |
or e-mailed from the votetaker.  Official ballots  |   OFFICIAL USENET
are distributed blank.  Failure to use an official |
ballot significantly increases the chances that
the vote-counting software will be unable to process your vote.  Beware.

Give your real name here:
If you do not give your real name, your vote will be rejected.

[Your Vote]  Group (Don't vote on this line--vote below!)
[ yes     ]
[  no     ]
[abstain  ]
[ cancel  ]

[         ]  soc.politics.marxism
============= END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line


Anything other than the official ballot may be rejected by the automatic
counting program.  The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with

an automated acknowledgement by e-mail - if you do not receive one within
several days, try again.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
registered correctly.

Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account.  Addresses and

votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.

Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.

Anonymous votes will not be accepted.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI forms
considered anonymous votes.  (The vote must be mailed directly from the
voter to the votetaker.)

In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is standard
operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the violator.

Anyone who distributes pre-filled ballots or modified copies of this CFV
commits voting fraud.  While distributing an unmodified CFV is allowed, it
is strongly discouraged, as the process of redistribution often adds
to the document that confuse the vote-taking software.  Reference to the
official CFV in news.announce.newgroups or to a copy mailed directly from
the votetaker is preferred.

When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

--Brennan T. Price, UVV
  Running UseVote 3.0


     --- from list marxism at ---

More information about the Marxism mailing list