Brian Carnell briand at
Tue Apr 30 08:56:16 MDT 1996

On Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:35:24 -0500, Joseph Koenigsman
<jokoe at> wrote:

>  Third, if you, Carnell, or others wish to point out impropieties that
>occured in Russia when Stalin was in power, by all means do so. But get
>your facts straignt.

Actually I was a bit more concerned about Lenin's crimes.  Without
Lenin, Stalin is impossible.

After all, who but Lenin would have decided that while millions of
Russian peasants were starving (largely because their food *surpluses*
had been confiscated by the Bolsheviks) that the Soviet Union should
sell grain on the international market rather than feed its own

I also don't understand the defense of Trotsky, and have little
compassion for him.  He was hardly someone opposed to terror tactics;
his own methods caught up with him.

>And, Stalin wasn't guilty of murdering 12 to
>20 million people. This crap was started by the "John Birchers" after
>Stalin died in 1953. In the 50's the Birchers began accusing Stalin of
>murdering 1 million people, which put Stalin in catagory of arch fiend
>with Hitler. In the 60's, the figure was 4 million, which made him
>almost as bad as Hitler, who killed 6 million Jews. Today, the figure is
>between 12 to 20 million, which makes Stalin worse than Hitler. And,
>less than a month ago, a "right winger" told me, "Hey, did you know,
>Stalin murdered 30 million people. I'm sure after they convince everyone
>Stalin was the devil incarnate, they'll try to tell us, "Hitler was a
>saint!" Well, it's a bunch of bull s-it!

You remind me a lot of the Holocaust revisionists I occasionally
debate in another forum.  "yeah, it just didn't happen."

>  Forth, regarding "purge trials" in the 30's; if you're going to blame
>Stalin for execution of Bukharin and others, you better start blaming
>Trotsky too.


>There hasn't been
>a fair trial in this country since it began. Dr. Samual Mudd was sent to
>Devil's Island for fixing a broken leg when Lincoln was shot. You don't
>blame Andrew Johnson. Private Slovak faced the firing squad in WW-II,
>because he couldn't pull a trigger. You don't blame Eisenhower; he could
>have commutted the sentence. In Minot, ND during the 1980's, a wealthy
>psychitrist named Dr. Rowe, beat a 16 year old boy to death in front of
>500 witnesses, for sitting on his car fender. He was exonerated, without
>a day in jail, and never lost his licence to practice.

You don't?  You don't blame Eisenhower for not commuting Private
Slovak?  No wonder why you lack any sort of moral compass.

>  Finally, your defense of Trotsky and Bukharin, clearly reveals your
>slanted thinking. Trotsky was an elitist opportunist a--hole who wanted
>to take over the people's revolution "for his own ends."

Just like Stalin.

> In my mind, he
>wasn't even a good Marxist. He began as a Social Democrat, and then
>betrayed them, vacillating between Bolshevism and Menshevism for years.
>  In March, 1917, after Czar Nicholas was deposed, Trotskey hurried back
>to Russia and joined Lenin as a Bolshevk.

Yep.  Trotsky was never forgiven by the Bolsheviks for this, which is
why he didn't have a chance in the power struggle that developed after
Lenin's death (of course Stalin did a wonderful job of outmaneuvering
Trotsky, such as effectively keeping Lenin under house arrest while he
could still talk and communicate).


Brian Carnell         
briand at

     --- from list marxism at ---

More information about the Marxism mailing list