Hugh rewrites history!
malecki at algonet.se
Sat May 18 15:32:36 MDT 1996
>In the first place, m2 is a discussion mailing list on the internet, and
>not a political party. I don't have to accept any political principles to
>join it. However we might characterize the politics of some of the
>subscribers, there is no political position that all subscribers
>automatically agree to. So political swamp or not, I don't put myself in
>anything of the kind just by subscribing. It's the same thing as the fact
>that I don't put myself in any political position just by reading a book.
>And I reserve the right to read or listen to anything I feel like without
>anybody else telling me that hearing or reading it automatically makes me
>something the dog brought in.
In the first place, M2 was set up only first after the ivory tower tried to
expel some of the people on M1. It is not just a "discussion mailing list".
It was the elegant Baroness von lisa and her cohorts in the ivory tower who
set it up and then made the rules and expelled people in secret trials. A
discussion list like M2 was hardly a concious decision to make something,
but a concious decision to run away and then start war against people who
defended a correct line on workers democracy of the M1 list..
Nor do i accuse you of not having the right to take part in this. Go ahead!
But do not expect me to trust you on questions of principle again...
>You know very well what I think about the separation of the lists. I think
>everybody does. But now the separation has occurred, there is a possibility
>that one or two discussions on things like working-class subjectivity,
>Hegel and Spinoza and the development of Marxism, and some aspects of
>Marxist economics will take place on m2 that I don't want to miss. That's
>not a political crime.
I do not really care what your position is any longer. Its your actions that
count. To discuss Hegel you accept the very basis of M2,s creation. Not only
that you agree to not take up this question on the M2 list..But i do not ask
you to miss the Hegel,Spinoza discussions. Go ahead! But you will not have
my trust or support in this. Because no discussion is worth not fighting the
very principles and practices of M2! You have made a contract with these
creeps to agree not to discuss that people were thrown out in secret trials.
That the rules are for hiding the incredible way that this M2 group came
into existence...So do not deny this.
>You're being a bit unilateral yourself, actually, the way you condemn my
>resubbing without any previous discussion of what it might imply. I don't
>remember any call for an organized boycott of m2, and I don't think I would
>have supported such a call. If m2 erected a wall against m1, there's no
>reason why m1 should react by putting up its own wall next to the one
I do not condemn you resubing to the list. Go ahead. However you have lost
my trust in you because of your actions. Perhaps the discussions to you are
worth that. Good luck..I am not putting up a wall between M1 or M2. They
made the rules and held the secret trials. It was not a question of building
a moderated group to discuss Hegel or anything else. It was the elegant
baroness von lisa and her gangs of "marxists" thugs acting like cops on the
>It's possible that a number of us might have agreed not to subscribe anyway
>and mount a campaign against the split on the grounds that the whole
>reasoning behind it was against the spirit of Marxism and detrimental to
>politically developing a synthesis of theoretical and party practice. But
I am not asking anybody to do anything. That they do of there own choice.
Nor will i take an iniative to blocade the m2. However in the future i will
certainly tell people about m2 and their way of treating working class
militants like myself. And i will do it with anyone who wants to discuss
that list here on Internet. If somebody asks me about freespeech and the
Internet, i intend to link M2 and Clinton and all the rest as being those
who will gag free speech..In fact if somebody wants to interview me like
Aldolfo and i,m believe this will be the case i intend to put the M2 asses
on the burner for being anti free speech and using cop methods to gag people..
>m2 is a closed and moderated list, so there's a bouncer on the door. The
>rules say more or less that you've got to wear a tie and mustn't discuss
>the bouncer or the club next door (no bouncer). So I have this tie in my
>pocket that I put on with a little grimace every time I go in, and take off
>every time I go out. I don't mention the bouncer or the club next door --
>but that doesn't stop me thinking about them. And it's not just one-sided.
>The bouncer and the rules tell you a fair bit about the place, sure, but
>just by being there, I contribute to its character -- for better or for
>worse. (What was it Groucho Marx once said -- I'd never belong to a club
>that'd have me as a member?!)
For you the M2 is a closed moderated group. That is just a little bit of
falsification of history at best...No, not a bouncer but secret trials and
expulsions! I do not really give a shit what you wear, you could have creasy
jeans on, but doing that in M2 with its history is taking part in criminal
activity directed at people who fought for a principled correct
position..You might contribute some character to the M2, just depends on how
one sees this question i guess.. I am afraid that what you have gained by
your actions must be weighed against what you lose by it..But you are free
to make your choice..
And if you think that Internet is some fucking tea party outside of reality
which makes people act in different ways you are highly mistaken my friend..
And as far as clubs go, well i am not here to be a member or not. In fact i
am here to give my veiws and fight with people about those veiws.So if this
is a club let me know and i will leave immediately. I have much more
important things to do with my time..
>m2's limitations on discussion are very self-contradictory I think. For
>instance, since the origin and demarcation of m2 are off-limits there, a
>whole Hegelian dimension of self-awareness is shut off. This might not seem
>like a big deal, but if you can't critically analyse where you came from,
>it makes it more difficult to know where you're going.
Hegelian awareness has locked itself in a room and said workers and poor
people not welcome. It certainly can not help us one bit there! Or is it
just that these people are those kind of "marxist" who think that they are
helping the working class by their actions or discussions for that matter.
>So, I don't stand for m2 as an ideology.
I know what you stand for politically. I have been reading the mail. Its you
actions my friend. Words have to be coupled to deeds!
>I don't *support* its policies, even if I abide by them in my discussions
>there (I put the tie on -- it makes me feel uncomfortable, but it doesn't
>change my heart). No subscribers are required to make a statement
>*supporting* the policies or rules. What is required is passive, you must
>abide by the rules, you don't have to put your hand on your heart and swear
>allegiance to the flag. In Pinochet's Chile, teachers had to look happy and
>enthusiastic when they taught the kids about the coup and the military
>regime -- so there *are* differences.
Stop the bullshit hugh. All that i have said about M2 is real. The only
thing lacking is a loyalty oath. Well silence is loyalty! So fuck off...
>I stand on 'principled dry ground' regardless of the thousands of
>undemocratic constraints placed on me by the simple fact of living in an
>imperialist society. Just earning a living means abiding by this kind of
>constraint in hundreds of everyday confrontations. It can be a real problem
>knowing when to say stop so you don't slide into quicksand and get sucked
>under. But I don't think the big dividing line in the class struggle runs
>between m1 and m2 -- that's inflating their significance out of proportion.
I am glad to hear that you stand on principled grounds in imperialist
society. Its just that now you are in M2 which claims to be "marxist" and a
history of secret trials and rules that are made up as they go along. If you
are so fucking principled why have you allowed them to gag you. Oh, yeah i
forgot, for the Hegelian discussions.
Well, we have to make our priorities don,t we. I mean that you are prepared
to do certain things in return for other things. I can understand that. It
is just that you and i have different priorities. Sorry!
>As for accepting 'anything the Fujimoris of the world hand out to you', I
>think that is on a different level. Resistance to that calls for collective
>action on a mass, organized basis. Obviously, petty instances of
>bureaucratism, injustice, arrogance and so on should also be combatted, but
>we've got to choose where to concentrate our efforts or we end up running
>around all day doing good works out of charity and getting nowhere.
That is exactly what it means. These people have show with their actions
that they are cowards. Not only in taking on their political opponents, but
the whole creation of M2! If they can,t stand up here, how are you going to
make me believe that these people are gonna stand up when the shit really
starts to hit the fan. So my accusation stands fast. The first sign of
Fujimora types they will run..
>m2 is a restricted forum for certain kinds of discussion relating to Marx
>and his ideas. As long as it doesn't try to extend its domain over to m1
>and restrict what anybody has to say here -- as it might perhaps by using
>statements made here as a basis for m2 disciplinary action -- then I think
>we should let it get on with it. I really don't think it's much use as a
>litmus test to judge the political character of subscribers.
The new and revised addition of M2 and its history and purpose. How quaint.
Who do you think your fooling with this stuff Hugh? As you say time will
certainly tell where things are heading. Good luck in your new role my
friend. And we all take the consequences of our actions.
But your case here has made you a political enemy of malecki. And naturally
that has its consequences too as time will tell..
malecki in exile...
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