New societies in womb of old

Louis N Proyect lnp3 at
Fri May 24 09:32:01 MDT 1996

On Fri, 24 May 1996, Adam Rose wrote:

> If we used the criterion of whether "the CIA, the Pentagon, [and] SEATO," THOUGHT
> a country had abolished capitalist relations to decide whether that country really
> had ACTUALLY abolished capitalist relations, we'd end defending some very odd countries
> indeed. Obviously, we'd end up supporting both sides in the war between "Communist"
> Russia and "Communist" China.

Louis: This is nonsense. Any Marxist would have been depressed by the
divisions between the USSR and the People's Republic of China. While the
USSR was mainly at fault for abandoning China in much the same manner that
it abandoned Nicaragua later on, there was no doubt that the CIA et al
regarded both countries as the class enemy.

> MI5 ( the British secret service ) really did THINK that Harold Wilson was a Communist.
> That doesn't mean he WAS a Communist.

Louis: More silliness. Nixon thought the Democratic National Committee was
conspiring with communist subversives, hence Watergate. This is not what
we're talking about, however. MI5 certainly KNEW that Great Britain had
capitalism under Wilson, and also KNEW that the USSR didn't.

> In either case, we have to analyse real relationships between real classes, and
> relate any ideology to those real relationships.

Louis: OK, let's do that. Tell me when capitalism was introduced into the
USSR. In October 1917? A little later? When exactly?

> I think, Louis, that your abuse indicates you can't supply any real analysis. When
> it comes to Nicaragua or Cuba, you abuse less and analyse more. I still disagree
> with you on those subjects, but at least you're pleasant when you discuss them.

Louis: You want pleasantness, go back to M2. My idea of abuse is
petty-bourgeois radicals like Jorn, Hugh and Jim Miller castigating the
Sandinistas for not being revolutionary enough.

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