Louis P slanders Hugh, Neil and Bob
m-14970 at mailbox.swipnet.se
Sat Oct 5 18:44:04 MDT 1996
Louis P excelled himself in one-dimensional malevolence this evening.
In three threads, "The national question, democratic tasks & Stalinism",
"Najibullshit & "national liberation"" and "I was just a fucking nutcase",
he pours acid and slander over two Trotskyists and a militant state cap.
I wrote an innocent Marxist reflection on the fact that ideas have social
roots and are related to the political interests of these, but also have a
>> M1, unfortunately is more of a mirror than we might like to admit,
>> reflecting (echoing might be a better image) the opinions of fairly
>> important segments of the labour movement. Right now it's heavily
>> overrepresented in terms of academics and Stalinists, but that's probably
>> just a childhood disease, at least as far as the Stalinism is concerned.
and Louis lashes out quite blindly:
>This gets to the heart of what has destroyed M1 and what sits like
>a coiled rattlesnake ready to destroy M-I if Zeynep, Godena and Flanders
>are not vigilant.
Making a political characterization is seen by Louis as being a "coiled
rattlesnake". Very threatening to a psychologizing poseur.
Then he presumes to patronize Zeynep, Louis G and Jon F, as if they can't
think for themselves. And why Godena and Flanders for the guys, but Zeynep
for the gal? Is her surname too long?
>Mailing lists of several hundred people on the Internet are not
>appropriate places to pretend one is Lenin, Luxemburg or Trotsky and the
>"other" is Kautsky or Bernstein. This is just too closed a space and it is
>much too inflammatory.
This is ridiculous. Again, the personal is pushed and politics is
subordinated to psychological gameplaying. This is central to Louis's view
of politics, but not to that of serious Marxists.
And he gets cyber-claustrophobia (!!!), while having the nerve to talk of
"much too inflammatory"! Which being interpreted means: "Get off my patch,
>Back in the spring I tended to blame the degeneration of M1 on the PCP
>flame wars. Now it is clear to me that a much bigger problem was the
>behavior of ultra-Trotskyists like CEP (Carlos, "Shiny Shit"), Rodwell and
>an agent-provocateur who spews Spartacist league venom to earn his pay.
Marvellous. A theory of the mailing-list betrayed! Degeneration. Now of
course Louis has made peace with Adolfo and the PCP, so he is deliberately
and consistently blind to Adolfo's "behaviour". The politics takes front
seat, and it's anti-Trot all the way. The list has "degenerated" for him
because certain Trotskyists disagreed bluntly and in a principled fashion
with his fatalistic and anti-revolutionary analyses of the Nicaraguan
Once again, too, we get the criminal libel levelled at Bob M, without a
shred of evidence. Louis is schizophrenic. One post he says he has no
proof, the next he demands that Bob prove his innocence, and the next he
repeats his old accusation as if it's brand new! Only he's not mad, just
politically utterly discredited, so all that's left for him is smear
tactics and insults to personalize the discussion and distract attention
>from its political dimension. He should join the Maoists, they have a use
for his "talents".
Then he thrusts himself centre stage:
>This one of the biggest problems I have with Trotskyism by the way. When
>Trotsky had a big faction fight with Max Schachtman in the American SWP,
>he said that he was trying to prevent a scratch from turning into
>gangrene. He was also fond of describing Stalinism as the syphillis of the
>This type of mentality, leaving aside the question of its appropriateness
>at the time, is like arsenic for an Internet mailing list. Instead of
>getting the profound Louis Godena that we are getting now, we instead
>would get a flaming demon. It is interesting that the ultra-Trotskyists
>are incapable of modifying their behavior. What an indictment of
Watch it Lou (G), he's after allies. You'll be slimed if you're not careful!
Again, the poison slur.
Again "ultra-Trotskyists" in the dock. Substitute "Menshevik neo-Stalinist"
for ultra-Trot and you'd be getting closer to the truth.
>We need a mailing-list where we can leave our guns at the door.
He's even *talking* like Adolfo now. Guns guns guns.
>If you are
>anxious to prove how "revolutionary" your line is and how "Menshevik"
>somebody else's is, go out and organize the masses with it.
Organization and theory/polemics go hand in hand.
>That is how
>you "destroy" your adversaries, not by wasting this precious space with
>sterile denunciations. (It is interesting, by the way, that Rodwell never
>talks about any activity he is involved with in England.)
Makes you weep ... "this precious space". Give us a break!
His brains are so curdled with hate that he hasn't even noticed I live in
Sweden. Factoid Man's a bit short on fact at times.
>This does not mean that I am opposed to polemics. I love to defend ideas
>that are close to my heart. A model of what these polemics can look like
>is my debate with Jim Miller on Nicaragua. We spent a month in battle
>without using terms like "Menshevik" or "Petty-Bourgeois". In the end,
>most people on the list, including me, felt that they had learned a lot.
Hindsight is a real mellower, eh? Jim's been off the list for a few weeks,
and Louis immediately ropes him in on his side as a noble opponent!
>This is not Rodwell's appproach, however. He doesn't want to do his
>homework. He doesn't want to be intellectually prepared. It is much easier
>for him to make sterile "denunciations" without getting beneath the
>surface. When he is joined by his agent-provocateur partner in such
>efforts, the results can be terribly corrosive.
This is nothing but malicious finger-pointing with the aim of removing
political opponents by administrative means.
The acid you and Adolfo have been trying to throw over me and Bob has had
the unfortunate effect for you two of flying back in your own faces. You
don't like it when you get your own poison back with interest. Tough.
You're fools, you know no better than to spit into the wind.
>Fortunately, M1, in its waning moments, is turning up some interesting
>discussion. This bodes well for M-I. All I would ask is that the
>moderators of M-I keep their eyes on the prize. This is what we are
>looking for: intelligent dialog, not arbitrary administrative rules to
"All I would ask" -- the humble suppliant. What a grotesque exhibition!
Of course there is interesting discussion going on, little thanks to Louis.
The "degeneration" of the list is purely his sense of growing political
If Louis wants intelligent dialogue, it's about time he cut the crap and
got down to political discussion instead of slander, alliance-mongering and
boasting about his fabulous intellectual powers.
In his attack on Neil, mercifully brief, Louis writes:
>> The nationalism of today reeks of backward and reactionary filth against the
>> unity of the working class all over the world. This is why the bourgeois and
>> petty bourgeois currents are so infected with this disease in their eopch of
>> decadence --and for exploiter class hegemony, they try to inculcate this
>> ideological poision onto the workers in all nations.
>Louis: This type of rhetoric is poison. If we allow this sort of thing to
>go in M-I, we will face an immediate crisis. Substitute "feminism" or
>"trade unionism" or "solidarity movements" for "nationalism" and you would
>get the same exact "thought" from "neil".
It's not the words, it's the ideas that matter. Maybe Louis could tell us
where Neil's wrong? Where nationalism helps the unity of the working class?
Where a ruling class doesn't exploit nationalism to split the workers?
Again, where Neil speaks of an alien class ideology as "poison", Louis
refers to the words of a fellow-subscriber as poison. Provocative,
>The left in 1996 has learned to evolve beyond this sort of stupidity, but
>we are vulnerable to the intervention of 5 member "vanguards of the
>proletariat" on our mailing list. This stuff absolutely has to disappear
>or else a space *must be created* in which it is prohibited.
"We" are vulnerable, oh deary me! Too bad *I* feel vulnerable to an
invasion by the one member God Almighty clubs masquerading under the
pseudonyms of Louis Proyect and Adolfo Oleleche on "our mailing list".
And through it all, the call for a ban. Well, give it to Louis, he *never*
repeats himself and he *never* screams for the cops to do his dirty work
for him... ;->
The sheer personal venom of Louis's contribution "I was just a fucking
nutcase" has to be seen to be believed. Of course it's just the usual
vicious and unfounded provocations and smears, though. Bluster to cover a
hopeless position. He's lost it, but he's going down with his popgun
popping thirteen to the dozen.
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Louis flatters me by
attempting a close-reading job on Bob's chapter.
However, to work, it's got to be relevant...
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