My Unanswered Response to Sven (from Marxist-Activist)

Owen Jones owen.jones at
Sun Aug 29 09:47:51 MDT 1999

Mac said:

> I finally caught me a Trot (or A Stalinist) saying what I always most
> feared. They get off on this more than struggle. There is absolutely no one
> in the world who believes that Owen is going to convince Sven, or
> vice-versa, of any damn thing at all. You just plain ol' get off on it. You
> just extended someone who wouldn't cross the street to spit at you an
> invitation to a private debate on why not. No wonder the movement is more
> successful when it gives up Marxism to discuss Fox hunting. Sometimes, it
> would appear, that is a lot more grounded in reality. Hint to both of you:
> The people of the working class (and you are both their true leaders, okay?)
> don't care. Let's talk about what they talk about.

 Believe it or not, Mac, the sole purpose of debate is not to convince the
opponent of ones own opinion. It helps us to understand the opposite view,
to perhaps review aspects of our own view, and even to come up with some
understanding. That, Mac, is one of the finest ways to demolish
sectarianism. Unfortunately, Sven does not seem to have mastered polite and
respectful debate, and considering he manages now two lists, this is perhaps
a bit worrying (I hear he now jointly moderates a list which will help
people who are new to Marxism to understand Das Kapital - though I won't be
receiving an invitation to join, I fear for what will happen to those of a
similar age to me). However, I have actually had some meaningful debates
with him, if I ignore the 'insults' that might just have easily have come
out in a meeting between Kruschev and Mao.

> So, Owen: What do think of the "peace" in Yugoslavia?

 Since I have devoted nearly all of my previous posts recently to the
"peace" in Yugoslavia, with my thoughts, what my friend Maja in Belgrade
says about it and what it is like for her, and sent articles from the news
about it in, I thought my position was already quite clear. If you want to
open a debate on the subject in a different thread, in which we can share
opinions, then I welcome that.

 Oh, speaking of which, Maja has invited me to contribute on the website she
is working on with others around the world, called 'Resistance', which will,
as she said, oppose both imperialism and the Milosevic regime. I'd like it
if I could have suggestions from people here on this, if anyone has any
ideas. As I have previously said, she has called for an independent leftist
party, and blames the war directly on the capitalist system. Here are some
recent interesting recent comments from her:

" Demonstrations were, and passed, they were really big, everything is the
same, yes, you are right about those parties. They are only puppets, but
some independent organizations took a part in it, well I am so confused.
I would like to see Milosevic to be thrown down, I would like it so
much!!!!! I hate him with all my heart, but who will come on his place,
it is so difficult question here! And the winter will be terrible. We
have great problems with electricity, I am disconnected every second day
few hours. I can't imagine the winter time...I ask myself shall I have
electricity at all. Economic situation is also horrifying, salaries are
miserable for a lot of people, a lot is without a job, teachers don't
want to start a school year because they didn't get a salary from April.
Everything seems like it would collapse at once. The situation with
Montenegro is hard, Andrej just came back from there, he said they were
ready to separate, with big blessing from the west, of course!! "

" I don't know but it seems like another life. I have been very scared at
the beggining. After I felt helpless, the feeling I don't like, and when
the end was near I have been desperate mostly because of the electricity.
I weren't scared of bombs anymore, they bombed almost every night and day
for 77 days and you get used to it. But electricity, ohhh it was
terrible, I always had a feeling I shall never be connected again. And
when I finally get electricity then I were afraid they will bomb it
again, as they usually did. It is so far from me now, it is probably self
defense to forget it as soon as possible. But I really can not read my
mails from that period, I think I 'd feel terrible. It is my irrational
feeling. "

" Milosevic wasn't popular then, and he is not popular now. The problem is
with  our opposition parties. You said right thing, they are opportunists
and people are very demoralized. So they didn't want to vote on the
elections and Milosevic and Seselj won with some 30%-40% of votes. Less
then 50% voted. If you know that they stole all elections, you will know
that they don't have a lot of fans. I don't know one person who voted for
them. And I know a lot of people. Their voters are people less educated
who still believe in all lies on national TV, and older people.

Ha, ha, we ARE under dictatorship of Coca Cola and Microsoft, WE ARE
already. Wherever you look you can buy all kinds of Coke, ok I admit and
Pepsi. But I hardly bought my Apple monitor. And there is no CDs for Mac
but tons for PC. I had a problem to buy modem, they all asked me why
extern?? Because my Mac can not stand stupid intern, but here everybody
has PC, not Mac, just a few of us still resist. But I am happy we have
developed piracy, and all software from Microsoft is almost for free. In
Belgrade there are only 4-5 registrated versions of Windows. Ha, ha!!!! "

Owen Jones

"Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil,
oppression, and violence and enjoy it to the full."

Leon Trotsky

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