marxism-digest V1 #1640

Anthony Boynton northbogota at
Fri Dec 24 15:40:51 MST 1999

Hello everyone!

I am writing in response to two of you: Louis Project,
who drafted me into this discussion, and Sr. Nestor
Miguel Gorojovsky, who - judging by the tone of his
polemic against me - would prefer that I not
participate in this discussion.

Most of my remarks will be in reply to Sr. Gorojovsky.
Those remarks will be divided into three posts: this
post contains "Gorojovsky’s methods of discussion";
the second will respond to his charges against  Nahuel
Moreno; and the third will respond to his views of
Latin American history.

But first, let me respond to Louis Project. Louis
posted a letter I wrote here on this site, without my
permission or prior knowledge. He has since apologized
for this, and I accept his apology. However, that post
colors the discussion between Sr. Gorojovsky and
myself, as anyone interested in reading further will
see. (But again, thank you Louis for the kind words
with which you introduced the post.)

I. Sr. Gorojovsky’s methods.

A. “More revolutionary than thou...”

In my letter to Louis I wrote,

“I haven’t made up my mind about this (the bourgeois
revolution in Latin America) . If you remember what I
wrote about how the bourgeois revolution in England
affected the British colonies in North America, you
will know why. The Spanish and Portuguese colonies,
were appendages of countries which had not experienced
bourgeois revolutions up top the time of

Sr. Gorojovsky’s “more revolutionary than thou”
remarks on this began,

“Since I am interested in having a socialist
revolution here, I can not afford to ‘not making my
mind’ on this issue ...

Sr. Gorojovsky’s interest in revolution should in my
opinion, cause him to have respect for others who do
not take theoretical issues lightly, and who do not
make pronouncements about history when they are not
sure. The fact that I expressed uncertainty about an
issue of history which I am studying, and about which
I did not make any public statement - is to my credit.

Would- be revolutionaries who make pronouncements as
if their word were divine, have been the cause of
many, many defeats - and many deaths of their own

But Sr. Gorojosvky seems to advocate exactly this
irresponsible method when it comes to history. Does he
use the same method on every issue? Or does he merely
advocate that others use it?

I am interested in having a socialist revolution here,
too. And not just here. However, I like to think,
study, and write carefully before I present my views
to public debate.

There are times when we have to decide quickly, and
without sufficient knowledge - to act and to lead
others to act.  This however, isn’t one of them, I
assure you. I plan to take more time studying the
issue. I will even read what the gentleman from
Argentina has to say on the issue of history -despite
his shoot from the lip, polemnicize before you think -

B. Poisoning discussion

I wrote,

“Spain, along with Germany and Italy, didn’t need to
have a bourgeois revolution because the French gave
them theirs - via Napoleon.

Similar to the way Eastern Europe in the 1940’s didn’t
need to have proletarian revolutions, because Russia
gave them theirs - via Stalin.

(The real history is considerably more complex, but
this is good enough for a little note like this.)

The bourgeois societies that were left after Napoleon
did not have the tradition of bourgeois revolution,
and their nationalisms were tinged with feudal
reaction. (The opposite of French nationalist

Sr. Gorojovsky replied,

“Our nationalisms were not tinged with ‘feudal
reaction’ (this sounds more like the Black Legend of
Spain, so profitably put to work by Britain, than
Marxist analysis.)” Gorojovsky continued with a
defense of the advanced thought of 19th century

Unfortunately, Sr. Gorojovsky does not read carefully:
I was not referring to Latin American nationalism.* I
was referring to German, Italian and Spanish
nationalism. German Romanticsm was more than tinged
with feudal reaction. So too, was much of 19th century
Italian nationalism - (not just feudal reaction, but
romanticizing the Roman empire.)  Spanish nationalism
restored the Borbons to the throne after Napoleon’s

That “tinge of feudal reaction” within the
nationalisms of those countries had a lot to do, in
the 20th century with the emergence - and strength of
- three very nationalist and reactionary movements:
Nazism, Fascism, and Francoism.* *

These facts have nothing to do with the “Black
Legend”. They are history. And they were what I was
referring to - not Latin American nationalism,
current, past or future.

But, even if Sr. Gorojovsky had read carefully, and
even if I had written what he imagined, his comparison
could have served no good purpose. It could only serve
to poison a discussion between his friends and allies
and myself - to warn others not to discuss with me, or
to frighten me into dropping this line of discussion.

This is the methodology used by petty professors who -
uncertain of their own knowledge and understanding -
harshly criticize anyone with different ideas, simply
to prevent further discussion that might expose their
own weakness.

This is hardly the methodology of someone who thinks
these issues are vital to the socialist revolution
that they profess is very important.

*However, I am very interested in discussing the
subject of Latin American nationalism. I am even
interested in the factual knowledge of Sr. Gorojovsky.
However, I hope he read his sources more carefully
than he read my letter to Louis.

**And these historic facts are not in
contradistinction to the backward looking ideological
beginnings of virtually all new political and social
movements. What else can you start with, but the ideas
that already exist? What is important, is the extent
that new social and political movements are able to
supersede and surpass those old ideas, to transcend
them , to transform them, and create a better
understanding of human society, history - and all
material reality.

C. Trivializing an opponents views,

Sr. Gorojovsky wrote,

“Louis’ opponents views are too mainstream.”

And then,

“It is not surprising that Louis’ friend, then, goes
on with this, which recalls the worst in Marx, and
just adds to the British manufactured legends of our
own revolutionaries.”

‘Back to Colombia. Bolivar, inspired by the British,
French, and American revolutions, maybe was trying to
lead a bourgeois revolution - but he didn’t call it
that. He was leading a war of independence, a
republican revolution ... If you read the stuff he
wrote, it was pretty contradictory. But very

“I was not aware that Robespierre, Cromwell, and the
like called their revolutions ‘bourgeois’. Could
someone on this list please enlighten me on this? ...”

Sr. Gorojovsky continues in this sarcastic vein -
without ever realizing that I was responding to a
remark Louis had made in his essay about Colombia!
Louis wrote,

“ Simon Bolívar tried valiantly to carry out a
bourgeois-democratic revolution in Colombia, Venezuela
and  Ecuador, but the cowardly and unpatriotic
bourgeoisie would not lead it, let alone cooperate

I was being a little sarcastic toward Louis, but in a
friendly way. Sr. Gorojovsky certainly should not have
any problem with the use of sarcasm! [However he might
benefit from learning how to read more carefully,
think more carefully before he writes, and maybe
-sometimes- withhold comment until he understands what
he is writing about.]

Okay, enough of this. The point is, Sr. Gorojovsky
should take himself, and those he criticizes more
seriously, and cut out the pedantic and silly

My next post will answer Sr, Gorojovsky about Nahuel

--- marxism-digest
<owner-marxism-digest at> wrote:
> marxism-digest      Saturday, December 18 1999
> Volume 01 : Number 1640
> In this issue:
> ==============
>    SV: Hot from the Slavoj Zizek Masturbatorium
>    RE: "comradess" (RE: Ceding ground to capitalist
> ideologues)
>    Latest Anti-Fascist Readings
>    Re: Latest Anti-Fascist Readings
>    Re: Hot from the Slavoj Zizek Masturbatorium
>    Re: Hot from the Slavoj Zizek Masturbatorium
>    Re: Answering Patrick
>    Re: "Detention" of PInochet
>    US Funded Radio Marti: paying Cubans to listen
>    Extraterritoriality, families of the disappeared,
> and a poem
> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:20:32 +0100
> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Anders_P=FCschel?="
> <ahp at>
> Subject: SV: Hot from the Slavoj Zizek
> Masturbatorium
> I think it sounds like the kind of satire a porno
> (not pomo) magazine might
> indulge in. It's virulently anti-serbian, though I
> couldn't help finding it a
> little funny in spots (for example, the notion that
> taxi-drivers in Belgrade
> have a degree in philosphy). Of course the premise
> that a Serb might receive
> recognition in the center of the very world that is
> engaged in destroying his
> country, is absurd. For instance, Spielberg would be
> more likely to make a film
> about an Albanian.
> Perhaps unlike some on this list I don't think that
> the serbs should be above
> critisism, but any critisism - whether in the form
> of satire or more sincere
> endeavours - should be footed in the realities of
> life in Serbia. For instance,
> the virulent anti-moslem sentiments voiced in films
> and books.
> Anders Püschel
> ahp at
> - -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: * <yu217096 at>
> Till: marxism at
> <marxism at>
> Datum: den 18 december 1999 22:03
> Ämne: Re: Hot from the Slavoj Zizek Masturbatorium
> >Can someone explain this please.
> >
> >
> >M A Jones wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> "Hoy, Dudes!!!!
> >>
> >> Moy naim, iss Slavoj. I yam from big seeti,
> Belhgrad, you know? But now I hit
> >> TAIM!!! Lekchurs!!! Gurls!!! Big pisstake of
> gobbliguk in New York Reviw of
> Buks,
> >> big seminars in Oxford, Englund in big lekchur
> halls where gurls sittin wiv
> >> legs akimbo, moufs agape, men, you wooden
> beleev!!! So fuckin EASY to score,
> >> men!!!!!!
> >>
> >> And not only LEKCHURS!!! Naow I yam to Hollyvut
> for Big taim PICTURE!!! Bruce
> >> WILLIS goin to star in BIOPIC of OLE SLAVOJ, mi
> kamerardie!!!! This big
> >> tell just to YOU!!! For your eyess ONLY, me
> leetle frend, you know why I
> konfaid
> >> in you thiss way? Kos you leetle tiny helpless
> bug-eyed email freak, need a
> leetle
> >> help in your life or a jerkoff anyway,.
> >>
> >> But first dere frend, I kees you and I tell you
> leetle somefink about life of
> >> SLAVOJ.
> >>
> >> I born unt bred in old Belhgrad.
> >>
> >> Iss verra beeg seeti, lotov nais gurls. I yam
> teksi-draiverr in Belhgrad. I
> ken do
> >> for you, WHATEVER!!! WHATEVER!!! you laik!
> >>
> >>  Slavoj can fiks it!!!!
> >>
> >> Nait-kloob, gurls, bit of snort, bitov smak,
> whatever, Slavoj fiksit. Kak we
> saiy,
> >> No Problemo. Slavoj fiks everfink. Lotov sisters,
> big femili, me. And that's
> not
> >> ALL!!! Know wjat? We heckers in Belhgrad, we fiks
> the Net damn gut, during
> >> leetl Kosovo misunderstanding we get Yanks to
> piss on Chinkie embassy real
> >> good, we give Madeleine Albright big mustache on
> Foggy Bottom website,
> >> we do anyfink Slobo want, cash transfer thru Bank
> of New York, we Belhgrad
> >> heckers fiksit real gut, no fiks, no fee, get
> results. Now Chinese Peepl's
> >> Republic gonna give $300 million to Slobo! Not
> bad!! Yeah!!!
> >>
> >> So now we all famous dudes on Net!!!
> >>
> >> Now like I say,  I yam even verry famous BIG guy
> in Hollyvut!! I get
> >> Stephan Shpeelburg here, want to make nais film
> of Slavoj, I got nais
> retainer,
> >> ten percent of action know what I mean??? And
> why? Why little Slavoj get alla
> >> dis big pee-err?? Nuts about the NET!!! That's
> why! I run thees webpage,
> >> I sign webpage SLAVOJ KISS YOU!!! unt you know
> WJAT???
> >>
> >> You wooden BELIEVE, number of gurls who apply!!!
> Like I mean,, MILLIONS of
> gurls,
> >> tasty, tender, just-basted, not so basted,
> whatevr, apply to Slavoj for
> >> satisfaction, BIG KISSING unt no guilt, thassa
> main think!!! Nais leetle
> >> Europeans, Japanese slitty-eyed gurls,
> Californian CHICKS (Wow, man!) unt
> wjat I
> >> gotta do??? THEN AGAIN, RUSSIAN chiks!!!!! Wow,
> check eet out, men!!! Juss
> show
> >> the gurls little bit Belhgrad NAITLIFE, leetle
> bit GREEK coffee, nais
> Apollonian
> >> brandy, and BUM-BUM!!! Give them little
> talk-talk, Linguaphone style, big
> >> we talk UNTITTED NATIONS, we talk FILOSOPHIA,
> endocrinology, postmodernism,
> stuff
> >> like that, then we drive around leetle bit,
> inspect big linden trees, press
> years
> >> to bark, listen to sap rising, smell scent of
> nostalgic linden blossoms and
> >> BINGO!!! Again BOOM-BOOM!!! know what I mean????
> Talk a leetle bit more
> filosophia
> >> (all Yugoslav teksi-driverss pass spercial state
> EXAMEN na filosophie, all
> hev to
> >> read little HEIDEGGER,  leetyl GEGEL, leetl
> SCHOPEHNAUER,  all that kinda
> stuff,
> >> than agin BINGO!!! leetl bit KANT!!! Me, Slavoj,
> I bin studying KANT all my
> life,
> >> know what I mean!!! I got so much time put in
> chekking out leetl bit Kraut
> >> ding-an-sich here, leetl bit Yankee Kant there,
> ili Japanese Kant, post-kant,
> >> whatever, all saim think, hear creaking of
> KNICKER-ELASTIC one more time,
> >> ekshully, more CREAKING if MORE SYLLABLES PER
> WORD -- this
> >> main lessom wjat I hev learnt, mi kamaradies,
> learn leetle bit howe to score
> >> from OLD SLAVOJ!!! Talk more, fuck more!!
> >>
> >> This main lessun of pomo lekchur circuit, men.
> Old Slavoj, he very
> >> experienced TEKSI draiverr, teach you sometink
> SPERCIAL, men!!! even
=== message truncated ===

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