Movement for Socialism

Jose G. Perez jgperez at
Fri Nov 19 09:29:42 MST 1999

>>Louis is quite unable to discuss in a political way
Kosovo so he acts like a small business man fretting over the money he puts
in to maintain the list. Im sure myself and others would be happy to make a
financial donation to help keep a genuine marxist discussion list going.<<

No, what Louis is "quite unable" to discuss in a *political* way are the
dogmas, revealed truths, paranoid fantasies and so on of the various sects
and popes of the Orthodox [Marxist, Leninist, Trotkyist, Guevaraist,
Posadista, Barnesite, Mandelista, Stalinist, or Mao Tse-Tung thought]
churches, a deficiency he somehow seems to have spread among other members
of the list.

Just look at the attack that Al Whitlock launched against Louis:

"The attachment by Proyect
was provocative, simply because the Pro-Milosevich anti Albanian current in
the European left has actively been using material of this kind (and who can
test its veracity?) to sabotage attempts by European trades unionists to
take on an elementary responsibility to assist fellow workers in Kosovo and
earlier in Bosnia.  This took the form in 1994 of accusing a convoy
organised by the Timex workers in Dundee to take basic supplies -
non-perishable foodstuffs, clothing and sanitary items - to miners and their
families in Tuzla, Bosnia (a completely multi-ethnic, working-class
district) of using it as a front for carrying military supplies.  Of course
this was a lie, and it amounted to an attempt to put the lives of those on
the convoy at risk..."

Later he says posting the attachment --an article by somebody else, not
Louis, like HUNDREDS of such postings Louis has made JUST in the few months
I've been on the list-- was a "political act."

If Whilock had been on the list for a few more weeks he would have noticed
that no "political act" is involved in such forwarding of material, merely a
cut and paste operation. But no, he had to launch his ideological offensive
NOW, it had been, Jesus!, 12 or 14 days since he'd joined and as yet not a
single soul had been saved.

Now, notice the character of the attack. It is an attack on Louis for having
the temerity to make available the article. Now what was the nature of the
act? "Provocative," a provocation. Was that because of what the article
said? Kind of, we're told various devils use material LIKE this to cut
across the "elementary responsibility" of the proletariat to give alms to
the poor.

Now, what was the TRUE, HIDDEN MEANING of such a provocation against
charitable works? For that we are taken back to the the martyrology of the
sect involved, and a 1994 incident where similar things were written
(similar to the hundreds of articles which are similar to the one article)
and which, in the sect's opinion, explicitly sought to "put the lives of
those on the convoy at risk."

So there we have it: Louis by his act of cutting and pasting has assumed
political responsibility for the persecution and assassination of the Heroic
Timex Workers of Dundee, and their Glorious Non-Perishable Goods Caravan for
Workers of All Ethnic Groups, a quest that will live in song and story as
long as the grass grows and the river flows and the sun shines.

NOT, mind you, that any of our martyrs actually got killed or anything, but
there's one thing idealists of all stripes understand: It's the thought that

But the question naturally arises: just what sort of beast is capable of
such a provocation, of posting in 1999 an article to try to get the Timex
Comrades killed in 1994? Apart, I mean, from being, obviously, a Being with
an extraordinary control of the space-time continuum? Well, the workers
movement has a fair amount of experience with such people, and all of it
shows that provocateurs like Louis are usually in the pay of the bourgeoisie
or their political police agencies, either that or the Stalinists.

Which just goes to show: scratch a Healyite, get a security investigation.

As for Louis's alleged "small business man" mentality and censorship, I want
to add my voice to all those who are humbly praying that Louis stop using
his omnipotent control over the Internet in particular and the universe in
general to prevent those who find this list not to their liking from making
use of the door and setting one up more suited to their own tastes! Cut it
out Louis! Such pettiness, oh exalted one, is unbecoming a deity capable of
getting workers killed in 1994 by forwarding an article written in 1999!

With much chanting of Hosannas and burning of incense,


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Buitekant <Barry.Buitekant at>
To: marxism at <marxism at>
Date: Friday, November 19, 1999 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: Movement for Socialism

>The reason Bernie Wool was unsubbed was not because of anything he said
>about Argentina but because he opposed the political position of Louis
>Proyect over Kosovo. Louis is quite unable to discuss in a political way
>Kosovo so he acts like a small business man fretting over the money he puts
>in to maintain the list. Im sure myself and others would be happy to make a
>financial donation to help keep a genuine marxist discussion list going.
>Perhaps when people ask to subscribe to the list they should be asked
>whether they are or have ever been a member or supporter of the Movement
>Socialism. Personally I am not nor ever have been. But I was a member of
>Gerry Healys Socialist Labour League so I have encountered bullying tactics
>before and wont tolerate it.
>I have a sneaking feeling that I am about to be unsubbed.
>Barry Buitekant
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Louis Proyect <lnp3 at>
>To: marxism at <marxism at>
>Date: 18 November 1999 18:15
>Subject: Reply to Paul from the DSP
>>Paul, let me explain why this list was created. It was meant as a space
>>Marxists who rejected the methodology of small sectarian groups that
>>email lists as a place to "intervene". This list is the culmination of a
>>five year struggle to put as much distance between independent Marxists
>>the various Maoists and Trotskyist groupuscles who thought they were in
>>Russian Duma in 1905, making speeches under the discipline of their
>>I discovered a couple of days ago that Whitlock was a supporter of the
>>Movement for Socialism groupuscle. MfS is one of the shards in the rubble
>>that was known as Gerry Healy's International Committee for a Fourth
>>International. While they pay lipservice to the idea that something was
>>wrong with that enterprise, they also retain a lot of its bad habits.
>>Mostly, that consists of kneejerk Stalinophobia. In a list like this, that
>>is almost guaranteed to set off fireworks.
>>Steve Drury, the first MfS'er who showed up, got into fight after fight
>>with people on this list around African questions and Argentina. He tried
>>to draw a line of blood between the "traitors" and "killers" of the ANC
>>the tiny group in South Africa he was connected with. He also alleged that
>>Peron was a "fascist" and implied that our Argentinian subscribers were
>>little better than apologists for fascism. He caused such a storm of
>>controversy that he kept us from discussing more important matters. So he
>>was unsubbed.
>>Then we received a visit from MfS'er Bernie Wool, who raised the same
>>bullshit about Peron. Evidently it is something that the British sectarian
>>Trotskyist movement is really into. Nestor and Julio correctly labeled it
>>as accomodation to British imperialist prejudices. When I unsubbed Wool,
>>told me that he was glad because the list was such a Stalinist cesspool.
>>Not 2 weeks after Wool is gone, Whitlock shows up. I had no reason to take
>>any disciplinary actions against him, but after I found out in a private
>>mail that he was not only another MfS'er, but that he regarded the list as
>>"a mix of flame wars and cosy tummy stroking." When I read that, I was in
>>no mood to cut him slack.
>>Yesterday I posted an item from the bourgeois press that was meant to
>>supply background information on the Chechen guerrillas. It is exactly the
>>kind of thing that I used to do routinely with the KLA. Since I have
>>to Nexis at work, I try to take advantage of it. Whitlock's bitter
>>has to be understood politically. The anger reflects a belief that the
>>litmus test for revolutionaries is what attitude they take toward the KLA
>>and now the Chechen rebels. Those who take the wrong side are a
>>of Stalinists and Serb fascists. Support for the Serb side is tanamount to
>>supporting Hitler. If you think I am exaggerating, check out the Branca
>>Magas piece on the Against the Current website. Although they promoted her
>>views during the war, she lambasted them for not supporting Nato bombing,
>>which she viewed as analogous to the effort to stop Hitler. Not quite a
>>Trotskyist position.
>>Now I personally don't think that Kosovo is any kind of "litmus test". I
>>regard the DSP, Solidarity, Jose Perez and other comrades on this list who
>>I disagree with as being revolutionaries. But I am smart enough and
>>experienced enough to know that that's NOT the way that MfS thinks. They
>>divide the world into true revolutionaries and traitors around the
>>of Kosovo and a whole menu of other "defining" questions. This is part of
>>the sickness of Trotskyism. Trotsky's idea that a scratch turns into
>>gangrene has turned the Trotskyist movement into something that looks like
>>an amoeba on steroids.
>>But I will not allow them to pursue traitors on this list. I had too
>>an experience in the American SWP to put up with that kind of bullshit
>>here. Especially when I am paying $100 a month to keep the list going and
>>countless hours trying to get the furkackte procmail to talk to the
>>Louis Proyect
>>Marxism mailing list: (


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