Movement for Socialism

Barry Buitekant Barry.Buitekant at
Fri Nov 19 09:08:09 MST 1999

The reason Bernie Wool was unsubbed was not because of anything he said
about Argentina but because he opposed the political position of Louis
Proyect over Kosovo. Louis is quite unable to discuss in a political way
Kosovo so he acts like a small business man fretting over the money he puts
in to maintain the list. Im sure myself and others would be happy to make a
financial donation to help keep a genuine marxist discussion list going.

Perhaps when people ask to subscribe to the list they should be asked
whether they are or have ever been a member or supporter of the Movement for
Socialism. Personally I am not nor ever have been. But I was a member of
Gerry Healys Socialist Labour League so I have encountered bullying tactics
before and wont tolerate it.

I have a sneaking feeling that I am about to be unsubbed.

Barry Buitekant

-----Original Message-----
From: Louis Proyect <lnp3 at>
To: marxism at <marxism at>
Date: 18 November 1999 18:15
Subject: Reply to Paul from the DSP

>Paul, let me explain why this list was created. It was meant as a space for
>Marxists who rejected the methodology of small sectarian groups that viewed
>email lists as a place to "intervene". This list is the culmination of a
>five year struggle to put as much distance between independent Marxists and
>the various Maoists and Trotskyist groupuscles who thought they were in the
>Russian Duma in 1905, making speeches under the discipline of their central
>I discovered a couple of days ago that Whitlock was a supporter of the
>Movement for Socialism groupuscle. MfS is one of the shards in the rubble
>that was known as Gerry Healy's International Committee for a Fourth
>International. While they pay lipservice to the idea that something was
>wrong with that enterprise, they also retain a lot of its bad habits.
>Mostly, that consists of kneejerk Stalinophobia. In a list like this, that
>is almost guaranteed to set off fireworks.
>Steve Drury, the first MfS'er who showed up, got into fight after fight
>with people on this list around African questions and Argentina. He tried
>to draw a line of blood between the "traitors" and "killers" of the ANC and
>the tiny group in South Africa he was connected with. He also alleged that
>Peron was a "fascist" and implied that our Argentinian subscribers were
>little better than apologists for fascism. He caused such a storm of
>controversy that he kept us from discussing more important matters. So he
>was unsubbed.
>Then we received a visit from MfS'er Bernie Wool, who raised the same
>bullshit about Peron. Evidently it is something that the British sectarian
>Trotskyist movement is really into. Nestor and Julio correctly labeled it
>as accomodation to British imperialist prejudices. When I unsubbed Wool, he
>told me that he was glad because the list was such a Stalinist cesspool.
>Not 2 weeks after Wool is gone, Whitlock shows up. I had no reason to take
>any disciplinary actions against him, but after I found out in a private
>mail that he was not only another MfS'er, but that he regarded the list as
>"a mix of flame wars and cosy tummy stroking." When I read that, I was in
>no mood to cut him slack.
>Yesterday I posted an item from the bourgeois press that was meant to
>supply background information on the Chechen guerrillas. It is exactly the
>kind of thing that I used to do routinely with the KLA. Since I have access
>to Nexis at work, I try to take advantage of it. Whitlock's bitter response
>has to be understood politically. The anger reflects a belief that the
>litmus test for revolutionaries is what attitude they take toward the KLA
>and now the Chechen rebels. Those who take the wrong side are a combination
>of Stalinists and Serb fascists. Support for the Serb side is tanamount to
>supporting Hitler. If you think I am exaggerating, check out the Branca
>Magas piece on the Against the Current website. Although they promoted her
>views during the war, she lambasted them for not supporting Nato bombing,
>which she viewed as analogous to the effort to stop Hitler. Not quite a
>Trotskyist position.
>Now I personally don't think that Kosovo is any kind of "litmus test". I
>regard the DSP, Solidarity, Jose Perez and other comrades on this list who
>I disagree with as being revolutionaries. But I am smart enough and
>experienced enough to know that that's NOT the way that MfS thinks. They
>divide the world into true revolutionaries and traitors around the question
>of Kosovo and a whole menu of other "defining" questions. This is part of
>the sickness of Trotskyism. Trotsky's idea that a scratch turns into
>gangrene has turned the Trotskyist movement into something that looks like
>an amoeba on steroids.
>But I will not allow them to pursue traitors on this list. I had too bitter
>an experience in the American SWP to put up with that kind of bullshit
>here. Especially when I am paying $100 a month to keep the list going and
>countless hours trying to get the furkackte procmail to talk to the mhonarc
>Louis Proyect
>Marxism mailing list: (

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