GLW: Boris Kagarlisky on Chechnya

Jose G. Perez jgperez at SPAMfreepcmail.com
Thu Nov 18 21:06:18 MST 1999



>>I don't think there has been many posts that should result in the poster
being kicked off the list. The recent post by Al Whitlock seemed, in my
opinion, a reasonable post. More troubling to me, is the outrage of the list
owner toward a poster with an opinion that differs from his. <<

I tend to agree with Louis on this one. I think when dealing with a group
that functions in a tight and centralized manner, and that has an
established record of not abiding by the ground rules, you have to assume
that the "new" person that's just come on the list from the group, when he
begins to show the same pattern of behavior as the previous group reps, is
following the same line. There's no need for, and no point in, patient
explanation or repeated warnings and so on... the comrades obviously have a
policy, a line that they're carrying out.

Jose

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul.Benedek at BTFinancialgroup.com <Paul.Benedek at BTFinancialgroup.com>
To: marxism at lists.panix.com <marxism at lists.panix.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: RE: GLW: Boris Kagarlisky on Chechnya


>Louis has, over my time on this list, posted some excellent information,
debate, entertainment and more. Many others have also made excellent posts.
In amongst that, there has been some average posts, and some pretty poor
posts with crude politics - there's bound to be on such a list. The joy, of
course, is that what I might find crude rhetoric, others will find
brilliant, and vice-versa. It is through such discussion, debate,
clarification of positions, and also practise (which obviously doesn't take
place on the list) that we can hopefully move forward.
>
>I don't think there has been many posts that should result in the poster
being kicked off the list. The recent post by Al Whitlock seemed, in my
opinion, a reasonable post. More troubling to me, is the outrage of the list
owner toward a poster with an opinion that differs from his. Comments
follow........
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Louis Proyect [mailto:lnp3 at panix.com]
>Sent: Thursday,18 November 1999 11:47
>To: marxism at lists.panix.com
>Subject: Re: GLW: Boris Kagarlisky on Chechnya
>
>
>Al Whitlock wrote:
>>Proyect's attachment has all the hallmarks of the pro-Milosovich,
>>anti-Albanian front so active in Europe.  A common thread is that in both
>>Balkans and Caucasus the relics of a former 'socialist' state now
dominated
>>by Orthodox Christianity and floating atop the worst form of right-wing
>>nationalism, in the manner of grease on a stewpot, are pitted against
Muslim
>>minorities.  So bin Laden is financing the Chechen forces - what a
surprise!
>>  Was Proyect for or against Clinton's bombing of Afghanistan and the
Sudan?
>>  Is he for or against Yeltsin's onslaught on Chechnya?
>
>-Whitlock, you have a disease. It is called self-righteousness. With a
>-spittled-dripped challenge like this, I wouldn't dream of answering you.
>
>A disease? Self-righteous? For disagreeing with Louis' attached article? A
spittled-dripped challenge? Whitlock posits (I'd agree, some wouldn't), in
answer to the question "Is the present Russian regime a more dangerous enemy
of the international working class than the Chechen leaders themselves?",
that the Russian regime IS a more dangerous enemy. He then challenges Louis
to put forward his position - does he think that the Russian regime is NOT a
more dangerous enemy? Louis chooses to turn the cheek - that's fine. But I
think the political question Whitlock raises is fine also.
>
>-I
>-have thrown off two Movement for Socialism people since this list started.
>-First, Steve Drury. Then Bernie Wool.
>
>Now to the threats. If this Marxism list is to grow and prosper, surely
people with a different perspective than that of the owner should be
included? The debate around UN troops to East Timor was FAR more vigourous
than Whitlock's mail - yet no-one proposed their combatants being thrown off
the list.
>
>-If you continue writing this kind of "are you still beating your wife"
>-bullshit, I will be happy to make you number 3. You and Wool and Drury
came
>-to this list because you know that there are hundreds of independent
>-Marxists you would like to recruit to your sect. Unlike Wool and Drury,
you
>-managed to behave yourself for the 2 or so weeks you were on the list. Now
>-I see the fangs are bared and the fur is sprouting. Let me tell you
>-something, Comrade, I didn't put this list together so small sectarian
>-outfits can "intervene". The next time you grill me like some cheap
lawyer,
>-I will throw you out faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
>
>"are you still beating your wife bullshit", because someone challenges
Louis politically? Again, how many times during the East Timor debate (or
others) have one person or group been dismissed as "pro-imperialist" or what
have you - do we expel them too?
>"I didn't put this letter together so small sectarian outfits can
intervene" - I'm sure. But does the list (owner) seek to expel all those in
(what he describes as) small sectarian outfits? What is small? And
sectarian? (the cynical might suggest anyone who challenges the list
owner!). There are people on this list who are in parties (like myself), and
others who are not. Is this list exclusively for those not in parties?
>FInally, if Whitlock, Wool and Drury came to the Marxist list to recruit, I
think they've got pretty poor priorities....I'd put selling and writing for
the paper, getting to demos, networking with unions, etc, etc, about a
thousand times higher on my list - I doubt very much that anybody will be
recruited from the Marxism list. But hopefully we can continue to have open,
comradely debates, from individual Marxists and those in parties or groups,
that will help clarify our politics and inspire us to put it into action.
>
>Comradely,
>Paul (DSP)
>
>Louis Proyect
>Marxism mailing list: (http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)
>
>


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