Two Cents

gyanananda at gyanananda at
Fri Nov 3 12:57:17 MST 2000

On Thu, 02 November 2000, Xxxx Xxxxx Xxxxxx wrote:

> Whatever you say completely make sense.  If we >follow Brenner's ahistorical model
>of stagism,
>then we have to throw national liberation movements
> and
> anti-imperialist struggles in a waste basket.

Very deep confusion level in socialism about this.
I do not know who Breener is (maybe revsionist
from list debate) but stages or econmic
epochs there is in history. Marx say this very
clearly. On very high viewpoint looking down on earth,
following epochs is seen so far in human history:

Primitive communism
Ancient (slave)
Feudal (perhaps Asiatic Mode in Asia)

Within each stage, there is slow evolution of
productive force. This slow devlopment is by evolution.
At a CERTAIN/DEFINITE stage of devlopment of productive
force, existing productive relation do not fit
advanced productive force. Then, society throw of old
productive relation and substitute new productive
relation to corespond with new advanced productive
force. This sharp/fast transition is revolution. So,
historical law of development under normal condition is
by combine process of evolution and revolution.
This is materialist law of history of Marx and
Engels in pure or general form. And development is
always from lower stage to higher stage. This seen
in nature also.

But above general law of devlopment under go
particular variation when apply to particular country.
Today, in advance capitalist country, this process
is going on more or less in pure form. Today, level
of productive force there is very high level. And
capitalist relation of private property is not
fitting this high automation level of prouductive
force. If you agree with Marx and Engels historical
law, then advance country are soon become ripe for
revoltion. This will happen most probly in this
century. Growing sign of this is many kind of mass
movemenent, political movement, youth movement,
enviromental movement, etc in advance country - all
challenge existing capitalism mode - and all reflect
incompatblity of existing property relation with
advance level of productive force (stage of
automation after mechanisation).

So above is road to socialism in advance capitalist
country. This is normal road and follow historical
law of society devlopment.

But there is another road to socialism in poor country
where force of production is at low level. This
road is  2 stage road - first bourgois revolution (to
overthrow fedual apparatus) - then immediate another
socialist revolution to overthrow bourgeois himself.
This road to socialism is political revolution
following political revolution. This road, which
actually violate material historical law, is follow by
Lenin and Mao. Why? Because Lenin and Mao do not
want to wait for gradual and slow advance to socialism
under bourgois rule after bourgois revolution. They
want emancipation of people as soon as posible. This
is law of class struggle. Lenin got idea of 2 stage
road from Marx and Engels in Communist Manifesto
and implement it in Russia. So this road is another
road to socialism in poor country. But this road has
danger of revsionsm. During maechanisation of
productive force after 2nd socialist revoltion, new
bourgois generation possible as see in Russia and
China. This new bourgois seize control of transitional
socilist state. So class struggle continue in this
new kind of state after 2nd socialist revolution.

>The slogan goes something likethat:
>Wait for the working class to crystallize until it
>overthrows the
> bourgeoisie_. Which bourgeoisie is this for my sake?
> Isn't it a  comprador
> bourgeoisie in imperialized countries?

Yes, it is comprador bourgois. First stage task
(Mao call it new democratic revolution which is
led by proltariat) is end rule of comprador bourgois
who ally with imperilism. So proletariat ally with
pesentry, petty bourgois, national bourgois in
first stage. Main struggle here is against comprador
bourgois and imperilism.

Only after this stage, 2nd socialist stage posible.

>I wonder if  Brenner ever read Lenin?

Good question to ask him. Also this. Development
is always from lower to higher state - law of
nature. So reversal to capitalism (lower state
of economic formation of society) from socialism
(higher economic formation of society) is not
posible. Otherwise, this violate law of nature.

So what reason for reversal of socialist states to
capitalism? Because such state was not full socialist
state. They was transitional socialist state - on
road to full socialism along 2 stage road. But as
said before, this road has danger of rise of
revsionism. Material basis of this is rapid
development of productive force after 2nd socialist
revolution during mechanisation stage - this is
foundation for development of new bourgois force. This
actually happen in Russia and China. But Russia
and China could succeed on 2 stage road but was
defeat by internal rise of new bourgois.

But in advance capitalist world where now
mechanisation of country is long complete, and now
automation of advance productive force is happen,
coming socialist revolution will take place on much
higher base of advance productive force. After
such revolution, no need to mecahnise country since
already it is there. So no material basis of rise
of bourgois force once again. So such socialism will
not fall back to capitalism again (otherwise
violation of natural/historical law of advance from
lower state to higher state).

When first advance capitalist country has such
socialist revolution, or poor country on 2 stage road
has complete mechanisation of country and complete
material basis of socialism is establish there(difficult in era of imperilism) then we
enter new,
next and higher epoch of socialism.


______________________________________________________ - India's Premier Portal
Get your Free Email Account at

More information about the Marxism mailing list