Forwarded from Nestor

Mario Jose de Lima mjlima at
Sat Apr 7 14:58:20 MDT 2001

Não consigo entender como você argumenta contra o que voasse acha ser o
pensamento marxista recorrendo às atitudes do Senhor Chavez. O que pode isso


PS: Escrevo em português por acreditar que voas seja capaz de me entender.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vanessa DD" <jajije at>
To: <marxism at>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: RE: Forwarded from Nestor

> "I would say that Venessa is a clever troll who enjoys giving Marxists an
> amusing one-way trip to nowhere."
> I love that description; its cool, but I'm afraid i'm not here to give
> anyone anything. I doubt any of you need anything if you can afford
> internet.
> I'm here to TAKE, to learn, to listen, and to see if your arguments are
> strong enough to be taken seriously. I'm not here to teach you anything,
> change any of your minds, so I don't think it matters much what I say,
> except that if any of you bother to answer, it could help me do what I'm
> planning more effectively. Consider me the little 1st grader to whom you
> must explain stuff so I can grow and then do something with it.
> And nobody has yet told me why they think Marxist ideas from the 19th
> century are applicable today, which is what I've been subtly asking for a
> while. I just didn't think I needed to state it SO OBVIOUSLY.
> Oh, and I insist, I'd rather live in Venezuela than anywhere else; never
> seen another place that could truly produce so much, but doesn't just
> because of a lack of leadership. Poor Chavez is surrounded by idiots. The
> other day, the MVR people I talked to, said so many things that I already
> looked up and are wrong, like the architect identifying the front of my
> warehouse as postmodern when irt is colonial, grek-roman!. Sighhhh. Just
> about the only smart guy there is Isaiah Rodriguez (who was OPEC president
> for a few months). Chavez has changed this guy around from vice-president,
> to a bunch of different ministries, its like he's the only guy he has! the
> MAS leader, who IS a marxist and I liked a lot has vanished; it seems he
> joined the oligarchs? And there are Venezuelan all around the world who
> done great things.. but they must all leave the country to do it! It's
> that the oil companies (I think Shell was first) have had their hand on
> land for so long, the place is run by the US!
> A couple of weeks ago, Bush Sr spent some time here with Mr Cisneros,
> of a TV channel and a great corporation. They went fishing, because
> old pals!!! And the venezuelan Colony is Miami is the richest. All our
> leaders are worried about buying apartments in Miami, instead of fixing up
> the place.
> So I thought I could learn something from you all, since I have been
> in a position where many people are asking me for ideas and information on
> methods to do specific things. But no one has answered my call for help on
> coops, or of many things I have subtly asked the list, of course, in the
> form of arguing about ideas. That is the best way to learn and to teach.
> I guess Mr moderator could drop me a line, for after all, I no one here
> solutions, then I don't care for arguing about whether this or that is the
> proper way to think: I want to see proof, even just logical argument, for
> why your ideas are right! If you can't defend them, how can you believe in
> them?
> Oh, as for your posts being a waste of time, remember that most of the
> someone does something important for the people, their teachers don't get
> see what the seed they planted produced. When a teacher requires seeing
> effect of his teaching, either he is too eager for immediate satisfaction,
> or he just has no vision of the future. Reminds me a lot of capitalist
> thought.
> ;-)
> Love,
> Vane Dido

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