Les Schaffer schaffer at
Sun Mar 25 14:46:55 MST 2001

[ bounced from unsubbed Henry W Vandenburgh <vandenbu at Oswego.EDU> ]

Holland certainly does.  Don't know about others.  It's funny.  When I
was in the Army 1962-68, I was generally aware of guys in many units
who were well known to be gay, including known to officers and NCOs.
In those days, no one ever said or did anything about it.  They were
considered reliable and productive members of the units.  Most of the
gay men I met were either cooks or medics.  It strikes me that the new
"Hooyah" Army, with greater posturing at masculinity (perhaps since
the womens movement as a reaction, or in reaction to the greater
depowerment of American workers) is nuttier on the persecution of
gays.  Another change in the military (there were positive changes due
to the "rationalization" of the Army under TRAADOC which made the
training better) is a bad one, related, I think, to gay persecution.
This is a preening "elitification", where elite, hypermasculine units,
like the airborne forces, or the rangers, become the ideal for the
rest of the service.  These forces, like the Navy Seals, are dangerous
because they can be used for "political" purposes like assassinations
and so on.  I believe that it's likely that this masculinized
elitification helps drive an amping up of gay persecution in the
military at all levels.  Some probably is a reaction to the great
inclusion of women in the military.  (By the way, a great number of
the career women soldiers in the 60s were lesbian.)  The military has
swung too far toward Goering-like preening, vizthe lastest directive
that all soldiers are to wear berets.  Contra John Butler and others,
gays had always participated, and even been accepted, but now the
male-side of the Army culture (in the 80s-90s) was reconstructed to
persecute gays, and to wrongly claim that gays had never been

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, George Snedeker wrote:

> can anyone tell me some of the countries that allow gays into the
> military without any discrimination?

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