world working class
rhh1 at gotadsl.co.uk
Sun Aug 10 17:10:39 MDT 2003
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:16:57 -0400
> From: Mike Friedman <mikedf at amnh.org>
> Subject: Harris, Camejo and the world working class
> The demand to BTHN isn't raised for an international audience, but for the
> working majority here, and directed against our own ruling class.
Thanks, that's fine. I just asked what was the audience. I also asked you
to think about the fact that slogans are never just for a domestic audience,
and that if they are out of line with the tenor of the international
struggle, that needed an explanation.
> I would ask you, are you -- sitting in your study in England -- so
> knowledgeable and immersed in the U.S. political reality as to tell
> comrades here, who engage with that reality every day, what sorts of
> demands best respond to the concrete experience and awareness of working
> people in the U.S.?
Fuck off you bastard. I explicitly said I was not telling anyone in the US
what to so. I do not have that knowledge. But if you and I are in the same
international struggle, you need to tell me why BTTHN is a good enough
demand. During the Irish war, I certainly did argue in England that Irish
republicans had every right to shoot dead British troops. In England, I
said we should demand Troops Out Now! and NEVER challenge Irish military
campaigns. But I did not say that should be a current demand in Europe or
the US (read my posts, you stupid man.)
> You don't seem to be doing a very good job of it even
> in your own country, if you are going to tell your workers that British
> soldiers should be shot.
You pompous little shit.
> With that sterile type of sloganeering, you
> couldn't get the British army out of a paper bag, much less out of Iraq.
You think it is sterile because you are a direct thumb print of American
Imperialism, the American Imperialist 'Left.' You need shooting, just as
much as YOUR troops in Iraq. What do you say to Iraqi fighters, put up
banners saying BTTHN? You should say shoot the invaders.
The world is very diverse and we need to connect up the movement. Scum like
you are worse than Bakunin was in the First International because you
DELIBERATELY LIE and distort the argument. If the revolution comes, I will
I've been clear in my posts that I am not suggesting a slogan for the US.
The US is so diverse I'm sure one slogan in all contexts is a nonsense. But
if we are one worldwide working-class movement we need to be able to explain
our tactics, not to a leader, but to our list democracy. How is the BTTHN
slogan part of the world wide struggle? That is what I asked. That is a
legitimate question. The only arguments from US comrades I've seen have
been to do with the local patch. But do you not see that how the US left
acts is important for the world movement? Sometimes you might even have to
move into isolation in the US to inspire the world-wide struggle? I've
always been quite clear that I'm not suggesting an answer to you. I'm just
asking you to think about those issues. It's you answer that matters ~ but
think of all the factors, not just how will it sound in Houston (to pick a
difficult city at random. If a Huston comrade said BTTHN is edgy here, but
I'm rolling with it, I'll say well done. But I don't say well done to you
Friedman, when you are just another American imperialist.)
> Well, maybe in England... but, not here. Here, it takes a mass movement,
> combined with a determined indigenous resistance, embracing the soldiers
> WORKERS -- and please note the emphasis: the call to BTHN engages soldiers
> as brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, resonating with sentiments
> already developing among the troops and their families -- to end an
> imperialist war. That's the concrete reality.
But they are not whilst they are soldiers. They are the state. In Northern
Ireland, you shoot them (or they still should be shooting them. Tell me
Friedman, you think the Good Friday agreement is a victory?) They are the
enemy invader. In England, where you can, you helped the armed struggle.
It has always been that simple.
> As for the slogan itself, I trust the judgement of folks on the ground,
> like Stan Goff, although my experience with many of my high school and
> college students, drawn to the military via the "economic draft," leads me
> to think the slogan is appropriate.
If you think the slogan is appropriate to the US, fine. But I asked you to
think of the world. Why do Americans think America is the world?
> As others have already said, whether the same demand is raised all around
> the world is irrelevant. Every national working class movement must deal
> with the concrete particularities in its neck of the woods, or there
> won't be a movement.
But these little concrete particularities must join up into an overall line
of battle. That's all I asked you to think about.
> As for your comments about the Greens, the same holds. You substitute a
> pile of stale rhetoric from an 19th Century tract ...
I quoted Marx. Why is a rightwing imperialist shit like you, who thinks
Marx's writings are 'stale rhetoric', on a marxism list?
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