Last on the world working class
rhh1 at gotadsl.co.uk
Sun Aug 10 19:20:32 MDT 2003
>From Mark Friedman to me:
Then why don't you come and get me motherfucker? Because you're a sterile,
puerile, sectarian hot air bag. Not to mention a coward that hides behind
the Atlantic Ocean to make personal attacks. Actually, you'd remind me of
the sectarian pieces of shit that assassinated Roque Dalton in the name of
"political purity," except you wouldn't have the guts to do anyone except
your little sister. And you DARE to call me imperialist? The whole tenor of
your messages, all of 'em, is an abdication from dealing with your own
I'm sending this as it proves my point that not being in the US is, for
some, grounds for being a second rate. If I'm a coward for hiding behind
the Atlantic Ocean, then what can one do?
Let me be clear. I've been on this list for a while. I don't make personal
attacks. But I attacked you, Mike, because you personally attacked me for
puting a political case you think is wrong.
All comrades on this list will know that I have been firm in my criticism
and political action against the British ruling class. They are the central
enemy I must deal with. I have not once dictated anythign to American
comrades. Asking them to think about one of their positions is enough to
stirr up Mark.
Let's wrap this up.
I don't see any point in being on this list, Lou. I've been a militant for
my lifetime, Deputy district secretary of the communist party for many
years, county secretary of my union ~ I am not a windbag study based
'militant'. I've been sacked three times for leading strikes / militant
campaings. I've been an executive member of the South East England TUC.
I'm a good organiser and can relate well to the movement. I made a simple
posting. I have been subject to personal abuse since. I have responded in
kind. Why not? It's their language.
But I can't have a discussion here due to the abuse of some people (which
I'm sorry to say I have responded to in kind.) Other comrades have debated
But I now understand Henry Liu's contempt for the American left. I think
that is true for only a small part of it. But I have seen it and it is
Keep well. I have put my original posting below so comrades can check how
abusive and inflammatory it was.
p.s. who is Roque Dalton?
p.p.s. Lou, could you remove this person from the list? I don't think any
member of the list (me) deserves such as this.
10 August 2:39
You have to decide if you are part of the advanced world working class or
not. Capitalism is a world system, not an American system.
The Green Party is not in the frame worldwide.
Where are "the relations between themselves and the capitalists and
landlords" in the world of the Greens?
"Let us sum it all up in a word. The working classes remain poor amid the
increase of wealth, wretched amid the increase of luxury. Their material
privation dwarfs their moral as well as their physical stature. They cannot
rely on others for a remedy. It has become then with them an imperative
necessity to take their own case in hand. They must revive the relations
between themselves and the capitalists and landlords, and that means they
must transform society. This is the general end of every known workmen's
organization; land and labor leagues, trade and friendly societies,
co-operative production are but means toward it. To establish a perfect
solidarity between these organizations is the business of the International
The call is for the end of the sectarianism generated by the dreadful fate
of our Russian comrades. That was foreordained by the invasion by
imperialist troops and by the defeat of the German revolution. We will take
The call is is also for rallying around worker independence and solidarity
between international working class organisations. I am not going to tell
any American comrade what to do, but the slogan BTTHN sounds to me American
patriotic (does it include British troops? Don't just say yes as no British
left is using that slogan. If it is supposed to include British etc. then
you have to talk to us rather than being an imperialist left and telling us
our slogans. Would you have made the limp BTTHN call when the genocide
against native Americans was in full flood?) Let me tell you, it sounds
like Americans backing American troops. Buchanan uses the same slogan.
Now this tactic could be justified if you could be clear about your
audience. But the international audience I've met (which isn't much) don't
see this slogan as worker internationalism, but as American chauvinism.
Do you see there is an issue here? Huge numbers of people throughout the
world are radicalised against US government policy because of the invasion
of Iraq. Yet because of the difficult situation in the US, perhaps comrades
there are bending the stick too far. I'm not suggesting we must have one
slogan in all contexts. At a rally of troops families, backing the slogan
BTTHN to move them on would be ok. But in all contexts, even in the US, is
this the one slogan?
I'm suggesting that slogans and tactics ought to be designed with some
awareness of the world wide audience, the world wide working class. However
deep you are (buried) in the Mid-west, the worldwide left press will report
your slogans. BTTHN sounds just so Americans for Americans, which is what
the world hates. Capitalism isn't a set of national systems put up against
each other, it is a world system mediated by nation states (most of which
are cracking under the irrationality of it all.)
The world wants American, British, every foreign troop out of everywhere.
And that's not even the working class (and I know British working class
troops have this naive idea that the army is for defence. That, and their
class origins, is why they might be radicalised against their officers. But
it is not a reason not to shoot them dead in Omagh (to choose a topical
place.) I also know that the Army never recruited better than when the war
in Ireland was a hot war. Think about that.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Friedman" <mikedf at amnh.org>
To: <marxism at lists.panix.com>; <rhh1 at gotadsl.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 1:41 AM
Subject: harris' world working classless
> Then why don't you come and get me motherfucker? Because you're a
> puerile, sectarian hot air bag. Not to mention a coward that hides behind
> the Atlantic Ocean to make personal attacks. Actually, you'd remind me of
> the sectarian pieces of shit that assassinated Roque Dalton in the name of
> "political purity," except you wouldn't have the guts to do anyone except
> your little sister. And you DARE to call me imperialist? The whole tenor
> your messages, all of 'em, is an abdication from dealing with your own
> imperialism, scumbag.
> >Imperialism, the American Imperialist 'Left.' You need shooting, just as
> >much as YOUR troops in Iraq. What do you say to Iraqi fighters, put up
> >banners saying BTTHN? You should say shoot the invaders.
> >The world is very diverse and we need to connect up the movement. Scum
> >you are worse than Bakunin was in the First International because you
> >DELIBERATELY LIE and distort the argument. If the revolution comes, I
> >get you.
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