Peter Grimes interview on Indymedia

Waistline2 at Waistline2 at
Tue Nov 4 15:18:34 MST 2003

In a message dated 11/4/03 8:52:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, lnp3 at 
For example, I include Peter 

Gleick's website at:, which is based on his book 
"The World's Water: The Biennial Report on Freshwater Resources." The 
problem is that current practices--centered on industrial farming--are 
environmentally unsustainable. 


Agreed and herein lies the vision of tomorrow and an understanding of 
yesterday. There is no shortage of water in the Southwest. To pose the question as 
such runs counter to our vision and what is technologically possible - today. 
"Current practices - centered on industrial farming" is the problem. This 
reduces itself to the bourgeois property relations as it exist today. We have no 
disagreement on this. 

Soviet socialism has to be framed in a historical context and cannot be mixed 
up with what we face today or blindly equated with bourgeois property 
relations and applied science based a a specific curve of the evolution of human 
knowledge. This is what is meant: dam building and the cultivation of land is 
subject to the development of human understanding and applied on the basis of 
property relations shaping the applied possible. The "applied possible means" how 
one organizes resources to accomplish an objective based on an understanding 
of what is possible and good for society. 

It is not a question of socialism defying "human nature" or defying the law 
governing the movement of matter, but rather a question of the incremental 
expansion of knowledge of the material world - at least in respect to public 
property versus bourgeois property. 

For example - in my opinion, the failure of Khrushchev’s "Virgin Soil" 
program was not a failure of socialism or rather public property relations; or 
failure in attempting to usurp the law of nature and biological interactivity, but 
rather an illogical attempt to solve an economic problem by political fiat. 
Farming contains its own set of distinct laws that take shape on the basis of 
locale and human interactivity. In other words the question has absolutely 
nothing to do with Trotsky or Stalin for that matter. The question has to do with 
women and nature and agricultural production as a subsistence imperative. How 
this subsistence imperative is shaped of the basis of bourgeois property and 
made manifest on the basis of industrial logic are two interactive aspects of 
the social equation. 

Politics get in the way and everything is political. Yes there is a shortage 
- from the standpoint of sustaining the current form of social organization 
and its underlying property relations. Of this we agree. Politics prevent us 
from forming the question of this basis.  

The problem coloring the vision of the past generation of communists, 
Marxists and socialist - no matter what political tradition, was industrial logic and 
what was collectively agreed to be possible on the basis of this logic. 
Vision was limited to what was possible on the basis of industrial concepts and 
logic and we have exceeded this framework spontaneously - on the bais of the 
forward march of the material power of production and the advnace of general 
science. A deeper problem faced the Soviet communists, that cannot be reduced to 
"economic problems of socialism" or "bourgeois ideology for that matter."  

I agreed, public property relations cannot exceed the laws governing nature 
and biological interactivity. 

Our current development of the means of production recast every social 
question. A shortage of water in the Southwest was a very real material shortage in 
history but not today The movement of humanity and peoples was govern by water 
flow and water tables hundreds of years ago. What yesterday was a shortage is 
not a shortage today. Why live where the water table is low? 

In other words we are currently reconstructing the history of the historic 
flow of population centers on earth and might still be a hundred of two years 
away from this emerging as a concrete science of population. 

Melvin P. 

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