[Marxism] re: papist plots [On Einde's and Mark's comments]

Nestor Gorojovsky nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar
Sat Apr 2 08:13:21 MST 2005

Respuesta a:"Re: [Marxism] re: papist plots"
Enviado por:Einde O'Callaghan
Con fecha:1 Apr 2005, a las 22:16


[The Guy Fawkes celebration...]

> ...survived because it was a celebration of Protestant 
> triumphalism. They were celebrating the failure of the plot. That's 
> why they burn the guy, i.e. an effigy of Guy Fawkes. Actually in 
> the town of Lewes they traditionally don't burn a guy, they still 
> burn an effigy of the pope!
> Einde O'Callaghan

[Maybe I will startle some people here on the list, but read the 
whole mail, please.]

Perhaps this is the single truly English anti-imperialist (!) 

The forces that coallesced around "Papism" were the equivalent of the 
pro-imperialist bloc in a Third World country of our times.


Respuesta a:"RE: [Marxism] re: papist plots"
Enviado por:Mark Lause
Con fecha:1 Apr 2005, a las 15:27

> Before our revolution, the Guy Fawkes anniversary was celebrated as
> "Pope's Day" in Boston.  Rival North and South End gangs actually
> battled each other over the effigy, the winning getting the honor 
> to cart it through the city and eventually burn it.  The riot of 
> 1764 played a particularly important role in the efforts of Sam 
> Adams to unify these two forces, respectively under Paul Revere and 
> Ebenezer Macintosh into the shock troops of the Sons of Liberty.

This is most revealing, and confirms my previous comment to Einde's 
posting.  Now I find my hint confirmed.

In the peculiar conditions of early English history, the ideological 
issues that turned around "Papism", etc., were (however primitive, 
thus not represented in political but in religious terms,  etc.)  an 
unmistakable equivalent of such modern ways of national reassertion 
in religious forms as, say, the Iranian revolution, etc.  

I am not too versed on the details, but it is my gut feeling that in 
the same way that the material contents of Iranian religious ideology 
includes, among other central issues, nationalization of Iranian oil, 
Protestant England as against Guy Fawkes implied "nationalization" of 
English land through secularization of "Papist" estates.

It is therefore by no means a matter of chance that the English 
ruling class has such a keen management of internecine "religious" 
struggles in subject countries:  they are children of such a 

So much for the British bourgeoisie.

But the victory over the "Papists" was, in a sense, the first anti-
imperialist victory in modern life.  The heirs of the winners of that 
time have distorted this fact to the point of sarcasm, but it may not 
be useless to remind the English -and, as I see, American- working 
class that they are doing to others exactly the same that "Papists" 
tried to do to them.

It is completely natural that the shock troops of the American 
revolution, a colonial revolt, were recruited among those New England 
residents who had the best memories of the meaning of the Guy Fawkes 
celebration.  There is a continuity between struggle against 
"Papists" and the most popular and revolutionary tendencies of --a 
progressive, radical and popular English nationalism, as represented 
by Sam Adams.  

Because, in a time long forgotten, there existed conditions for such 
a (today) eerie animal to exist.  It is up to the English working 
classes to link themselves with that best popular tradition or to 
remain slaves to their own bourgeoisie.  What we should not do is 
making this bourgeoisie the present of the best popular traditions of 
the English peoples.

Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 
"Sí, una sola debe ser la patria de los sudamericanos".
Simón Bolívar al gobierno secesionista y disgregador de 
Buenos Aires, 1822
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