[Marxism] Re: Lincoln as industrial capitalist

Carlos A. Rivera cerejota at optonline.net
Sat May 28 17:25:08 MDT 2005

Quite frankly, I didn't understand part of this posts. In particular the 
"solid" thing, to what do you refer? Solid? WTF?

Care to go carthographic on me?

As to LBJ etc etc etc. Well, all you say is true, yet I see no diference 
between the Marshals and the Union Army, besides the scale of the fight. The 
both accomplished feats of human liberation that were necessary and which 
stand in history as part in the long march to emancipation of 

Your criticisms are materially irrelevant to today, and stand as ludicrous 
excercises in post-facto bickering, not to mention a somewhat priviledge 

After all, I am willing to bet you weren't personally grateful, like many a 
black southern schoolchild in the early and mid 60s, to be protected from a 
wall of hate by courageous, if personally racist, US Marshals, in your 
effort to get something any human being deserves: an education. That you 
fail to see a connection between this action and the Emancipation 
Proclamation, is incredible.

By your logic, we shouldn't join unions because they are bureaucratic 
corporations, and shouldn't have fought Hitler because it was 
"inter-imperialist" conflict, fought for the 8 hour workday, go to 
abitration in the NLRB or whatever is short of Proletarian Revolution. Your 
position of class privilege as a labor aristocrat, and petty supervisor, 
shows clearly in this one. Of course, if it happened in the 19th Century, 
when Trains ruled all, then it was a "Revolution". Gimme a break.

Now, after all the hot blooded rhetoric I have provided above, I mean to put 
into context, and expose, the different views on such historical events 
working class people of color in general have that are different form the 
rest of the class in the USA. You go into the average black household in the 
USA (unless it is some sort of ultra-leftist or cultish tokenizing 
"anti-bundist" household) and there are three pictures:

1) Jesus

2) The Reverend Doctor

3) Honest Abe

So me have Malcom X instead of the Rev Dr, and Elijah Mujahamed instead of 
Jesus, but the idea more or less holds.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "rrubinelli" <rrubinelli at earthlink.net>

> Solid with the Lincoln part, but Jefferson?  No way.  Rural agrarian
> democracy?  Only in a slaveholder's imagination.
> Solid with most of the Lincoln part, remember he was a lawyer, took
> whichever side paid his freight, in the beginning, worked for the
> Illinois Central RR  (hey nothing wrong with that, I worked for the IC
> too).  He, Lincoln, was the best the bourgeoisie had to offer, at the
> time when the bourgeoisie couldn't afford to be at their worst.

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