[Marxism] My last on Telerman, Ibarra, etc.

Nestor Gorojovsky nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar
Mon Apr 10 10:45:33 MDT 2006

[Sorry if I become too local in my answers.  But those interested in 
L.America and Argentina might learn from what follows.

The whole thing turns around two disasters that took place in Buenos 
Aires:  the República Cromañón catastrophe, where almost 200 died, 
and the recent fire in a clandestine slaveowned textile sweatshop 
where 6 did.

Both events were spurred and prepared by the generalized system of 
corruption established in Arg capitalism.

In both cases, the bourgeoisie as a class was at stake, but our local 
Leftists immediately equate "Bourgeoisie" with "Bourgeois rulers", 
and make the President, City Mayor, etc., directly responsible for 
the dead.  Thus, Kirchner, Telerman, Ibarra, "killed the boys".

In fact, those they are trying to blame are the representatives of a 
petty-bourgeois or even bourgeois attempt to heal some of the worst 
wounds of Arg capitalism as left by Menem.  But this is not important 
for our Leftists.  What is really important is that they are the 
"bourgeois government" and as such anything serves the ideal of 
socialists:  to destroy such a government.  Even when in so doing one 
finds oneself arm to arm with the most definite and repugnant 
elements of the far right  (Macri)

In this sense, the lines that follow may be enlightening to those who 
find themselves puzzled by the existence of strong Leftist oppositons 
to Chávez, etc.]

> Yes, Nestor: the government of Nestor Kirchner and
> Jorge Telerman -- who, by the way, had been in power
> long before he became Mayor of Buenos Aires - are
> responsible for the death of Bolivian workers in the
> city's sweatshops.  They knew about it and chose not
> to do anything. 

The concrete fact is that this ultimate bourgeois shill Telerman is 
storming the slave sweatshops now.  And, oh surprise, it is right now 
that your group falls on Telerman.  

By the way this "government of Nestor Kirchner and Jorge Telerman" 
phrase shows that you don't have the slightest sense of the concrete 
hue of politics, Petroni.  If you had, you would learn that in fact 
Kirchner considers (and for not stupid reasons) Telerman as an enemy. 
With the same logics you could have said "government of Nestor 
Kirchner, Jorge Telerman, George W. Bush, Lula, Chirac and all the 
bourgeois", which is in a sense true but little rewarding in actual 
politics, isn't it.

And, turning back to the point at stake, "populist gesture" or not, 
Telerman is -I repeat, since your "news" may mislead people on this 
list- storming the sweatshops and with no little consequences.  This 
you don't want to accept, thus you don't take into account nor inform 

I guess you would have liked to turn the issue into a new Cromañón, 
but this Telerman is not a gutless fool like Ibarra, Petroni.  You 
and all those who are trying to explain the Argentineans that 
Kirchner and Menem are the same thing (only that Kirchner is smarter, 
thus more dangerous) are condemned to political nothingness or to 
serve the Right from the "Left", as you did with Macri against Ibarra 
on the Cromañón case.  And, please, don't bait me with the dead at 
Cromañón: my own child risked being one.

> Their functionaries were bribed to
> overlook the situation for years.  No populist gesture
> can erase that.

Ah, yes, bribes on officials! Well, bribes are no news in Argentina 
nor, to my knowledge, in the capitalist world.  They are simply 
capital in action.  Your sanctimonious moralization links you with 
that ultra-reformist socialist Anglophile, Repetto, not with Lenin or 


> As to the assertion of "Latin American" unity under
> the guide of suc`h leaders as Lula and Kirchner...
> well, let's just say that GM and Ford -- the oil and
> gas bourgeois club and the old boys military networks
> from both countries are very happy. And yes, Nestor, a
> quick look at history would show the Brazilian
> bourgeoisie's appetite for hegemony.

Your stale economism is so deep, Petroni, that you can have an 
American Ambassador yelling against that unity in your very face but, 
since GM or Ford make some bucks on it, you don't understand what is 
it that this Ambassador is yelling against.  

As to the "appetite for hegemony" of the Brazilian bourgeoisie, well, 
this might be a matter to debate (it would be also interesting to 
understand the real nature of that "Brazilian bourgeoisie", BTW).  I 
will just recall that this was _exactly_ the same argument raised in 
Brazil when, during the late 40s, Perón offered to rapidly unify both 
countries and Chile.

But what really matters in this is not that enemies of the actual 
possibilities to lay down the foundations of a serious march of Latin 
America towards socialism will boom against any of these unities as 
caused by "appetites of hegemony" of our bourgeoisies.  What really 
matters is your marvelous sense of opportunity, Petroni, that sense 
of opportunity that makes your group broach the issue exactly when 
raisnig the issue of this "appetite" can run against the concrete 
forms in which unity is taking shape.

Isn't it a wonderful understanding of things, to broach the issue 
exactly at the moment when Argentina and Uruguay are bitterly 
quarreling over a particular issue (the paper plants in Fray Bentos) 
and this issue may bring the  break up of the Mercosur as a 

Yes, it is.  Your answer reminds me of the teru-teru, that bird 
which, according to popular saying (and I can bear witness, having 
tested it myself) "en un lado pega el grito y en otro pone los 
huevos" , that is "lays the eggs somewhere and shrieks elsewhere".

Facts are (a) you fall on Telerman when he is doing something to 
solve the problem you denounce, and (b) you raise the Brazilian issue 
when the very fact of raising it serves the great task of breaking up 
the Mercosur.  These are the _hard, concrete, facts that you deny_.

And as to people repeating itself:   yes, politics is basically a 
matter of patiently explaining, once and again (Lenin).  

In Argentina, ever since 1945, there has been a national-
revolutionary Marxism and a colonial-sepoy Marxism.  People don't 
change until material conditions change.  Argentina is still a semi-
colony, so that there are two kinds of Marxists, as well as there are 
two kinds of Conservatives, of Progressives, of Radicals, etc.  I am 
on the national-revolutionary side, you are on the colonial-sepoy 
side.  So that, taking your own declaration, 

> I would just make a note to myself not to answer this
> kind of postings anymore.

Yes, I think you should make it good.  You should try, instead, to 
understand why is it that your Marxism has never ever been able to 
link with the Arg masses or understand why is it -save by 
"backwardness of the (stupid) masses"- that they have never turned 
their eyes to your enlightened rendering of history...

Hope so.

Este correo lo ha enviado
Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar
[No necesariamente es su autor]
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"La patria tiene que ser la dignidad arriba y el regocijo abajo".
Aparicio Saravia
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