[Marxism] Do Latino immigrants drive down wages(was:"RE:immigration issues")

sartesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Fri Apr 21 05:48:28 MDT 2006

Flame on!  says JB

This is the point where perhaps someone might step in and advise Mr.
Bustelo, aka the Human Torch, to exercise a little self-discipline,
control his bombast, bluster, and baloney,  and deal with acutal

Probably won't happen.

But OK, let's try this.  JB, aka Nitro, asks if  imperialism has
anything to do with immigration.  Of course it does.

But... JB in his original ideological genuflection at sarcophagus of
Lenin's <Imperialism>  states that the main, net economic effect of
immigration is to transfer value from Mexico (and other countries) to
the US.  That's the baloney part.  First, and foremost, value has to be
produced before it can be transferred.  And this is where JB's
race-based economism fall apart, or comes together, or both-- value, for
JB as opposed to capital, has no specific social relation to production.
It, value, wealth, exists always, eternally, and apart from the
production of commodities by wage labor.  So... dispossession of small
producers, disruption of communal, or village, agriculture,  is seen, by
JB, not as part and parcel of capitalist reproduction in the
"developing" countries, detaching labor from its "groundings" in
use-based and subsistence production  (but doing it only half-way,
without completion) but imperialist "pillaging"  and "looting."

So... so we might ask Mr. JB to look at actual rates of immigration to
the US, or Germany, or Canada, or the UK and compare that with net
profits transferred, repatriated, contributed, looted, pillaged by those
countries from the sources of immigration, and include in that an offset
for remittances returned by the immigrants. That, by the way, would only
be on interest to someone who actually thinks economics, i.e. actual
social relations of production, has something to do with capital and

Capitalism is not just looting.

And I accept the mis-identification of myself as Josh Saxe as a

But no.  I returned as SA to avoid, at least for one post, the
moderator's censorship.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joaquín Bustelo" <jbustelo at bellsouth.net>
To: "'Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition'"
<marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Marxism] Do Latino immigrants drive down
wages(was:"RE:immigration issues")

"sartesian" --Josh Saxe, I assume, or someone doing an incredibly good
imitation-- comes up with what is almost a self-parody of an economist
reductionist bowdlerization of Marxism.

Especially enlightening is the refusal to recognize that immigration is
of the ways the United States as a country exploits Mexico as a country
because, don't you see, Mexico didn't really have a need for all those
workers, and anyways they send remittances home.

So I would ask sartesian whether he thinks there is such a thing as
imperialism and whether it has anything to do with Mexican and other
American immigration to the U.S., or the relations between the U.S. and
Mexico generally.


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