[Marxism] Joseph Weydemeyer and the Roswell Crash

Charles Brown cbrown at michiganlegal.org
Fri Mar 3 10:54:34 MST 2006

To a Lause
It has now reached the point of being simply funny.

CB: With you, it's funny from the gitgo.


Charles brought in a horse with a paper towel roll taped to its head, called
it unicorn, beat it to death, propped it up with bullshit, beat it to the
ground again, keeps propping it up with more bullshit, and
continues turning it into a dog's breakfast...all the while saying, "it
looks just like a mushed up unicorn to me." 

CB: You got a "poetic" imagination.


In a single email, Charles wrote that the Communist Clubs that existed in
American cities before the Civil War were "significantly following the
Marx/Engels party line."  (What "party line"?  What "party"?  What clubs?)

CB: You know ole "Marxist" Mark, the line of _The Manifesto of the Communist

As to Communist Club, ( I guess it's just one in NYC) I got that from my
_Joseph Weydemeyer: Pioneer of American Socialism_ by Karl Oberman;
(International 1948). The are references to "Communist Club" in NYC. on
pages 91, 112, 114, 130 and 135, my little excellent scholar. 

On page 91 is a section headed "The Economic Crisis and the Communist Club (
1857-58). The Communist Club of New York was founded on October 25, 1857, by
former members of the Communist League. Weydemeyer was in Milwaukee at the
time but did all he could to help the initiative.


Because Engels wrote journalistic articles on the subject, he "was an
internationally recognized expert writer on military science."  (Which makes
me one, too, I suppose, though they're not beating a path to my door for

Charles then suggests that, because "American" was in the title of the one
of the publications, "this might be a way that Engels would be known to
American military officials as a military expert from before the war." (Yes,
U.S. military and civil authorities didn't read detailed English or foreign
stuff on tactics, drill, etc.  They read encyclopedias with "American" in
the title.)

CB: Seems likely that they might read both. I'm not sure why you don't think
they would read the American encyclopedia.  Are you saying they only read
non-American stuff. The point about referring to the "American" is that it
means that Engels articles would be in America, whereas if he had written
for the "Austrian" encyclopedia, you'd probably say the Americans wouldn't
read it like people saying Americans didn't read the Engels-Marx U.S.Civil
War articles in the Vienna paper.
 Woooo , I got you good on this one, my erudite puppy. Engels did  more than
write journalistic articles on the military. 

In _Engels: His Life and Works_ ( Progress 1987) we find:

In 1857, at Marx's proposal, Engels began writing the military entries for
_The New American Cyclopedia_. He produced more than 60 articles ( which are
in a special vol of the M&E collected works; I'll dig up my copy of that
volume)in which he analysed the history of military science and warcraft."

( significant to our discussion here, this is an _American_ encyclopedia.
So, American military pros may have known Engels as a military expert from
before the Civil War itself)

"Your _Army_ is Capital," Marx wrote to Engels in September 1857. ..More
graphically than anything else, the history of the _army_ demonstrates the
rightness of our views as to the connection between the productive forces
and social relations. Altogether,the army is of importance in economic
development..( It's history is) a very striking epitome of the whole history
of civil societies."


He then suggests, "the Anaconda-surrounding plan was a bluff to coverup what
the real Union plan was. In other words, the Union leaders had plan to cut
the South 'in half' all along, and put out the other plan as a diversion."
(In other words, the Anaconda plan was a bluff to coverup the Anaconda plan.

CB: Yes, that's the suggestion. You got it. It seems to be sinking in slowly
as you repeat it. Uhhh. Does it dawn on you that it’s a possiblity. Uhhhhh
keeping thinking hard about  it.

On this thread, Mark doesn't seem to notice that this suggestion from me
would contradict my main assertion. If the Union command was bluffing with
Anaconda, then they already had the "Engels" gambit in mind independently of
Engels and wouldn't have gotten it from Engels, as I had suggested. Yes,
indeedy Marky, this suggestion was considering the opposite of what I said
initially. Get that mind flexing ole boy. Will build up your mental agility


Well, it must have fooled somebody.)

CB: Then of course, what could the Confederates have done about it anyway.
There may have been no need to hide it. Afterall, the Confederates could
have read Marx and Engels article too.


Switching subjects like a wet badger on LSD, 

CB: Yea , I guess it might seem like that to the slow witted, but to normal
people can follow it without getting freaked out.


Charles then turns to Weydemeyer, who says "led the victorious campaign
against Confederate guerillas in Missouri."  (No such campaign ever made it
into contemporary newspapers, the official records, or the many shelf-feet
of books on the Civil War in Missouri.)

CB: Made it into _Joseph Weydemeyer_ . 

And The American Heritage book _Civil War_ page 120

The Battle of Pea Ridge, March 1862, "...the next day Curtis sent Franz
Sigel's unblooded troops against them. Sigel had one of his rare good days
of the war, and the shattered Rebels were sent flying in all directions. For
three more years guerilla warfare would ravage the stte, but the Union grip
on Missouri was now secure."

More direclty, page 120 of _Joseph Weydemeyer_ a section is titled "The
Fight against the Confederate Guerrillas"...The organization of the first
and second artillary regiments which began in September and was accelerated
in October 1861, came about because of the special character of the war in
Missouri.." etc, etc. an extended discussion of Confederate guerrilla
warfare in Missouri and Weydemeyer's role in successfully suppressing it.

Page 121 "There still remained, however, the guerilla threat, against which
Weydemeyer organized a full-scale campaign."

Lets get this on the table. You are saying there were no Confederate
guerrillas in Missouri in this period. 


I have repeatedly underscored the ABSOLUTE LACK OF SOURCES FOR THIS

CB: You are repeatedly underscoring  A FALSE STATEMENT , if you are claiming
there are no sources saying that Weydemeyer did not fight against
Confederate guerillas in Missouri. 

Have you found your copy of _Joseph Weydemeyer_ yet ? I got mine right here.


I have also expressed my disgust at the fact that Charles has chosen
flagrantly to ignore: (1) what's scholars (including many Marxists) have
spent years and decades documenting and made well known); and,

CB: However, on this thread I have presented several documents themselves ,
Engels's , Marx and Internationale letters, you *(^*&%$^&^, and info from a
bio on Weydemeyer.


 (2) the
fact that there isn't one dog dropping of evidence for his wild

CB: There's several documents and scholarly sources from these sober and
intelligent assertions, what are you talking about. 


However, Charles does address the second point by noting that "missives on
military issues during a war _are_ likely to be secretive and lost to

We hear such arguments a lot today.  There is no evidence for Weapons of
Mass Destruction in Iraq, but governments tend to be secretive so the
evidence gets lost, right?  So, also, there's no evidence for the Roswell
crash... the long-standing membership of Bigfoot in the Communist Club of
East Lansing.... alien pod people (how else can we explain some parts of the
Left)...  This is secretive stuff, so the evidence is lost to posterity.

CB: I think it is u who is making the wild assertions here. There is one
reference to Engels writing in pseudonyms, if you think you and scholars
have every single piece of correspondence and document that was written by
Marx, Engels, Weydemeyer, in general, and particularly related to the war,
then u are a naïve scholar lacking  a bit of common sense. But anyway,
contra your monkeyshine antics above, I have presented scholarly sources,
_and_ documents that support some of what I have said. I have also
speculated. You seem to think that there's no speculation that goes on on
these topics on  this list. Where have you been ?  I can speculate all I
want around here. I can mix speculation with rigorous scholarship. I'm not
suddenly bound to some strict verification standard. 

Comrade Charles, will you please bury that poor dead horse and stop
beating it.

Mark L.

CB: Uhh Mark, in case you don't know it, your phony little lecture above
didn't carry the day on this thread and so please bury your horse's ass
tone. You "look" so silly in your post.

To a Lause

Oh would some power the gifty give us,
To see ourselves as others see us.

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