[Marxism] Cubans see hope for change in Obama - SentUsingGoogle Toolbar
rholt at planeteria.net
Mon Jun 16 14:56:23 MDT 2008
What kind of a socialist state is Cuba? when the rate of exploitation
of the workers of Cuba that including social benefit is higher than in
Argentina. Workers in Cuba earn much less than the working class in
Something confuses me here. The rate of exploitation as I understand it
applies to ANY society where one class expropriates unto itself the
surplus labor (as realized in some form). E.g., slave masters and feudal
lords used their state to enable/legitimise this expropriation just as
much as capitalists. The state, slave, feudal, etc., also returns
benefits to all (physical safety, food, irrigation technology, etc.) and
those benefits accrue in a hidden form to direct rewards exchanged for
labor power. (In part, wages in the capitlist case).
Where does the rate of exploitation determine or characterize the class
nature of the society?
Should I attend Proyect's reading classes on Marx? I'm not being
sarcastic here; I'm serious. I simply fail to follow Yossi's argument here.
yossi schwartz wrote:
>For many years the same argument about the class nature of the USSR was very
>common. The favorite argument was that there is no private capital as the
>state had the ownership.
> Yet when the Stalinist regime collapsed in the early 1990s and East Europe
>earlier it came as a shock for all of the same people who argued that the
>USSR was a socialist or at least a degenerated workers state. The same
>bureaucracy simply replaced the form of ownership.
>Since the 1917 revolution was a workers revolution when did the counter
>revolution happened? In 1991? This is a reformist theory since the state was
>not over thrown by a counter revolution at that time. So was it a gradual
>process? This runs against any elementary Marxism( see Lenin: state and
>The same argument was raise for years by many regarding China and today
>you have to live somewhere else, outside this earth to believe it.
>Was the Chinese revolution a socialist revolution? If you think so, when and
>how did it change its class character? Or is this state a workers state?
>What it seems to me the problem with your argument is that you assume that :
>Not a revolutionary working class party organizing the most politically
>advanced workers must lead the working class and this party can be
>substituted by Stalinists or left wing third world nationalists.
>Clearly in the case of China the social base of the Maoists was the
>peasantry. Thus some other class than the working class can replaced the
>In Cuba during the guerrilla struggle in the mountains the Cuban Communist
>party controlling the working class supported Batista and opposed Castro.
>This was not a working class revolution.
>You further must assume that capitalism at this epoch is still in the form
>of "free" market and that that bureaucratic capitalists is not ruling class
>and that it can substitute working class power.
>Where are the Soviets in Cuba?
>What kind of a socialist state is Cuba? when the rate of exploitation
>of the workers of Cuba that including social benefit is higher than in
>Argentina. Workers in Cuba earn much less than the working class in
>YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>Send list submissions to: Marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rholt%40planeteria.net
More information about the Marxism