[Marxism] Cubans see hope for change in Obama - SentUsingGoogle Toolbar

Rod Holt rholt at planeteria.net
Mon Jun 16 14:56:23 MDT 2008



What  kind of   a  socialist state is Cuba?  when  the rate of exploitation
of the workers of Cuba that including social benefit  is higher than in
Argentina. Workers in Cuba  earn  much less than the working class in
Argentina.



Something confuses me here. The rate of exploitation as I understand it 
applies to ANY society where one class expropriates unto itself the 
surplus labor (as realized in some form). E.g., slave masters and feudal 
lords used their state to enable/legitimise this expropriation just as 
much as capitalists. The state, slave, feudal, etc., also returns 
benefits to all (physical safety, food, irrigation technology, etc.) and 
those benefits accrue in a hidden form to direct rewards exchanged for 
labor power. (In part, wages in the capitlist case).

Where does the rate of exploitation determine or characterize the class 
nature of the society?

Should I attend Proyect's reading classes on Marx? I'm not being 
sarcastic here; I'm serious. I simply fail to follow Yossi's argument here.
       --rod

yossi schwartz wrote:

>2008/6/16,
>
>
>
>For many years the same argument about the class nature of the USSR was very
>common. The favorite argument was that there is no private capital as the
>state had the ownership.
>
> Yet when the Stalinist regime collapsed in the early 1990s and East Europe
>earlier  it came as a shock for all of the same people who argued that the
>USSR was a socialist or at least a degenerated workers state. The same
>bureaucracy simply replaced the form of ownership.
>
>Since the 1917 revolution was a workers revolution when did the counter
>revolution happened? In 1991? This is a reformist theory since the state was
>not  over thrown by a counter revolution  at  that time. So was it a gradual
>process? This runs against any elementary Marxism( see Lenin: state and
>revolution)
>
>The same argument was raise for years  by  many regarding China  and today
>you have to live somewhere else, outside this earth to believe it.
>
>
>
>Was the Chinese revolution a socialist revolution? If you think so, when and
>how did it change its class character? Or is this state a workers state?
>
>What it seems to me the problem with your argument is that you assume that :
>
>Not a revolutionary working class party  organizing the most  politically
>advanced workers must lead the working class and this party can   be
>substituted by Stalinists or left wing  third world nationalists.
>
>Clearly in the case of China the social base of the Maoists was the
>peasantry. Thus some other  class than the working class can replaced the
>working class.
>
>In Cuba during the guerrilla struggle in the mountains the Cuban Communist
>party controlling the working class supported Batista and opposed Castro.
>This was not a working class revolution.
>
>You further must assume that capitalism at this epoch is still in the form
>of "free" market and that that bureaucratic capitalists is not  ruling class
>and that it  can substitute working class power.
>
>Where are the Soviets in Cuba?
>
>What  kind of   a  socialist state is Cuba?  when  the rate of exploitation
>of the workers of Cuba that including social benefit  is higher than in
>Argentina. Workers in Cuba  earn  much less than the working class in
>Argentina.
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