[Marxism] Class Struggle, Fossil Fuels, and Environmental Catastrophe

dave.walters at comcast.net dave.walters at comcast.net
Thu Jun 19 17:51:04 MDT 2008

"It is quite typical of imperialist socialists to discuss these issues
in terms like..."

"We don't need population control, we need consumption control."

Seems Joaquin should heed his own suggestion here. The only place AT ALL
that people talk about "controlling consumption" are Greens and others from
*imperialist* countries.

Joaquin, himself a socialist from an imperialist country, then, ougt to know better. 
When NGOs, activists, etc talk about cutting back, it means extended misery and
poverty in develooping countries. It is also foolish to talk about "consumption" 
without talking about what *kind* of consumption; without talking about *production*
and other things. Joaquin has argued in the past that basically "all" consumption should
go down. I responsed it is wholly non-Marxist to talk aboutt this without understanding
that we could *easily* expand consumption and save the enviroment at the same time
if people think outside the box.

Raw materials such as steel, copper and aluminium are amost totally recycled thus
providing much less actual mining and enviornmental destruction that it took, say, 60
years ago to fabricate commidties from. Regardless, we need to get 2 billion people (forget
100 million dead people making  a difference) electricity. When that happens, refrigerators
and televiions *always follow*. Running water and santitary infrastructures follow as well.
This is a must to bring health standards up to the barest minimum. "Consuming less" is
going in the opposite direction

If we focus just on fossil fuels of course the world will actually consume MORE for the next 20 years
depending on price, of course, but generally more because development in places like Asia isn't
slowing down, even with a collapsing US finanial system. We need "alternatives" to fossil fuel
to husband what supplies we can save. If battery storage, to sight probably the most important
example, can really go past 150 KM between charges, then "consumption" becomes less
relelvant as we can produde rediculous amounts of energy if society wants to invest to do so.

i think dominaion of imperialism and class society is what holds us up most from this, as I'm
sure most us do here. But unlike some, I am far more optimistic about how humanity can
*increase* consumption world-wide and save this planet.


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