[Marxism] Military defeat/military victory

nada dwaltersMIA at gmail.com
Wed Apr 1 14:34:41 MDT 2009

I'd also like to beg the Moderators indulgence and ask that *today* be 
the last day to discuss this and let everyone get a few more licks in on 
the dead horse of "dual defeatism", etc.

I have no real differences with 99% of the people on this list who have 
taken an anti-imperialist position vis-a-vis the Malvinas War.

It is a multi-faceted discussion even within the anti-British/US 
imperialism camp.

It should be obvious that *everyone* in Latin America defended Argentina 
against British attempts to retake the Malvinas. The FSLN supporters in 
Nicaragua *intrinsically* knew the correct side in this battle. That 
should of been the end of Mr. Cloke's attempts to defend his countries 
dominance over the South Atlantic.

1. Within Argentina, there would always be a question of *why* the Junta 
launched the war. Prior to the retake attempt by the Junta, was there 
much clamor FOR them to do this? I doubt it. So there is this strategic 
issue that had to be settled by the Argentine masses in hindsight (going 
forward, there was little dissent over the issue of supporting their 
country against the Brits).

2. The bigger issue (perhaps) over revolutionary defeatism. I think this 
is, though, secondary, still to the point above. Win or lose, the Junta 
was going to be toast. I dissent from the usual "victory of a right-wing 
dictatorship in a battle against Imperialism means a victory for the 
revolution...". I've never actually seen this to be true and in almost 
*every* case the lost by such a regime usually means it's demise, 
imperialist or neo-colonial. Argentina is an example. So is Greece after 
the defeat of Greek forces against Turkey in Cyprus.

Oh, I had the fortunate experience of working at NASCO in San Diego, one 
of the biggest shipyards in the US, during the Malvinas war. This 
shipyard was hot bed of communist activity having just ended a communist 
lead strike to victory a year before I got there. Many of my fellow 
pipefitters were from Ireland. They were all quite nationalist and many 
had SF ties although it wasn't a point for discussion specifically until 
they got to know me better. The foremen, however, were, it seemed, all 
from the big northern Ireland shipyard that had expelled it's 
nationalist minority from the workforce in the 1920s or so. The foreman 
were all Loyalists. It got to be a battle of the buttons in the ship 
yard with the Irish and left all wearing the blue and white 
"Argentina/Ireland victorious" buttons a local pub printed up vs the 
Union Jack buttons of the bosses. And yes, there was a big dust-up after 
work between us and them which helped let off steam for everyone.

My only thoughts on all this.


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