[Marxism] Justice and Sustainability

S. Artesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Thu Apr 16 07:17:50 MDT 2009

Well, I guess I have the other half of Paddy's problem-- when I think I'm 
replying to Mr. Cloke on list, it's actually offlist unless I hit the "reply 
all" icon.

So in answer to his earlier post about "justice,"  I replied:


1.  That is certainly not how Barry defines it in his post, and I was
responding to his articulation of justice.

2.  No again.  Justice is a legal, propertied, concept--  justice is defined
by the legal processes of the society, or justice is determined to flow from
some variation of "natural rights," with "rights" being owned, like property
[and just as alienable no matter what certain late 18th century slaveholders
and merchants wrote].  Marx's analysis of capitalism, its immanent critique,
and the prospects for its abolition have nothing in common with arguments,
pro and con, about justice.


And in answer to this post,  first--  the notions of just can evolve slowly, 
rapidly, or in between and it doesn't matter now, does it?  It's all very 
nice about rights and the International Court evolving with global 
capitalism, but look around Mr. Cloke, exactly where and how and when have 
those evolving notions of rights, during the expansion of global capitalism, 
stopped the immiseration of human beings ?  The destruction of indigenous 
communities?  The conduct of warfare against civilian populations?  The 
practice of collective punishment?  Looting?  Rape?  The dumping of 
industrial waste off the coast of say...hmmm... Somalia?

Take another look at your own example of Ecuador and its constitution.  You 
are talking about the same Ecuador, where the government just recently took 
pretty strong action to break up the protests of the indigenous people, 
organized by CONAIE, against the awarding of the right to exploit resources 
to a Canadian company.

Would like to hear why anyone thinks expropriating the wealthy must, or 
will, lead to depletion of resources and waste.  This sounds to me like a 
variation on the fraudulent argument that in England the "commons" were 
devastated by wasteful, destructive practices of the commoners.

Always a pleasure, never a chore.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <J.M.P.Cloke at lboro.ac.uk>
To: <sartesian at earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:06 AM
Subject: [Marxism] Justice and Sustainability

Ideas surrounding justice have certainly been
functionally 'legal, propertied, concepts' for a prolonged
period of time historically speaking, but at the same time
it has also always had a far wider hinterland conceptually
and now, I would say, is evolving rapidly.

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