[Marxism] China's downturn

S. Artesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Mon Apr 20 10:19:29 MDT 2009

I appreciate Marvin's reply.

1.We agree, capitalist social relations are being generated.  I think they 
are dominant, not unified, unitary, but certainly dominant.

2. Marvin is wrong.  Landholdings have not been concentrated. Agriculture is 
practiced in the main on millions of small, non-contiguous plots.  Avg size 
of farms, or units of agricultural production is less than 1 acre.   Size 
per agricultural worker is almost exactly 1 acre.  In the US by comparison, 
194 acres.  Gross agricultural receipts are  about $ 2100 per worker.  In 
the US $170,000 per worker.  It is the parcelized nature of agricultural 
production that provides a limit to the productivity increases that have 
been achieved by the heavy applications of chemical pesticides, fertilizers, 
and labor.

The reforms after the Household Responsibility System turned a blind eye to 
migration of young people to the SEZs,  but migrant workers still have 
basically illegal status in China.  More importantly there has been NO rural 
depopulation, with the number of rural workers at 325.6 million in 2006,  a 
decline, but hardly depopulation from 2001's 365.6 million workers,-- with a 
total rural population of over 700 milllion.

3. Is it possible for China to resolve its contradictions the same way as 
advanced capitalist countries  have?   Marvin says "yes."  Pretty incredible 
answer.  Seeing as how no advanced capitalist country has resolved those 
contradictions without class war, international war, civil war-- where 
they've been resolved at all.  Is it possible for capitalism to resolve the 
contradiction between isolated advanced industrial manufacturing and 
archaic, fragmented, relations of landed property and landed labor?  Yes? 
Where?  Where has capitalism accomplished that since, hmmh say since the 
Russian Revolution without massive impoverishment, destruction of the means 
of production on the international scale-- like a world war or two?  Hell 
where has capitalism accomplished this since WW 1 even with massive 
destruction of the MOP and impoverishment?  What capitalism has accomplished 
with agriculture is exactly what it accomplished with the transplantation of 
modern industrial production into the "less developed" countries-- the 
creation of isolated enclaves of advanced production continuously running up 
against the limits of its own property form and the pre-existing property 
forms, creating the telescope that brings the struggles around land forward 
into the lens of socialism.

Remember the question was can this cheap labor policy do what the leadership 
ever since Deng thinks it can do--" utilize capitalism to  create a level of 
economic development that will then, not just co-exist with, but actually 
sustain socialism?"  The answer is "yes"?  Fuck it, we should all be 
capitalists then. Deng was right.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marv Gandall" <marvgandall at videotron.ca>
To: <sartesian at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] China's downturn

Artesian writes:

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