[Marxism] Honduras: Unequivocal signs of coming repression,

S. Artesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Thu Nov 26 09:22:13 MST 2009

All that from one short post?  All that from arguing in several short posts 
against CB's chanting O-bam-a, O-bam-a, and against those hailing the 
agreement as a "victory"?  Wow, Fred, good for you.

You think I'm arguing for socialism right now or bust?  Nope.  I'm arguing 
for class-defined actions or the struggle will be busted.

You want to defend, as you do, support, as you admit, a "bourgeois 
nationalist," as you call him?  Go right ahead-- actually no, don't go right 
ahead-- you have no business, and I do mean business, imposing your 
preference, your support of bourgeois nationalism as the correct and only 
viable path, proper "stage" or phase, of struggle onto the urban and rural 
poor of Honduras.

I mean you can do it, as countless "Marxists" in "advanced" countries have 
done for 85 years or so, but it is just one more first world imposition, 
prejudice, pushed upon the colonized and exploited people of "less 
developed" countries.  "Real class struggle?  Real workers' revolution?," 
our Marxists have said, "Come on, get real.  You guys down there in those 
little countries are nowhere near developed enough, conscious enough to have 
a real class struggle, a real workers' revolution.  That's for us, your big 
brothers in El Norte, who will support your right to have a regular 
constitution, a regular private property, a regular exploitation, to the 
last drop of your blood."  I can't imagine the poor of the global south not 
dropping to their knees with gratitude at your munificence.

Oh I know such imposition is done with the best of intentions, is done based 
on "objective" assessments of "material" conditions, on the balance of 
forces, on the "special" circumstances of imperialist exploitation, but at 
the end of all that ideological posturing-- the first world "Marxists" are 
still cramming the struggle of other people into that first world bag, that 
first world trick bag-- of democratic nationalism.

Anyone interested in my views on Honduras can read them at:


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Feldman" <ffeldman at bellatlantic.net>
To: "David Schanoes" <sartesian at earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Honduras: Unequivocal signs of coming repression,

> ======================================================================
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ======================================================================
> Artesian writes:
> So is it official now? Can we all agree that the "agreement" negotiated by
> Shannon wasn't a victory? That it was a fraud? That Zelaya should have
> never signed it, and the fact that he did says a lot about his class
> allegiance?
> Maybe we can take another look and understand that the forces driving this
> conflict have far outstripped the issue of his presidency, and what the 
> next
> steps must be? Maybe?
> Fred comments:
> What is Artesian arguing for? Allowing for traditional transitional 
> doo-dads
> like Soviets that he may tack on, it is basically just another variant of
> Socialism Right This Minute -- or Bust!"  And since virtually no one in
> Honduras or, indeed, the world is fighting on this basis right now (partly
> because Socialism Right This Minute is not possible anywhere at this
> moment), he feels secure in his stance as The One Who Knows that the 
> outcome
> will always be "bust."

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