[Marxism] self determination for oppressors

S. Artesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Sun Oct 18 14:27:02 MDT 2009

OK--  socialists workers who happen to be Jewish in Israel, cross the 
"national" line, and struggle for a revolution, dismantling of the Israeli 
settler state, the right of return, the removal of Israeli real estate 
holdings, settlement, etc. in occupied territories, social, collective 
organization of the means of production, and most importantly, access to 
water with Palestinians, and these same workers want to be able to go to a 
synagogue, pray, keep Kosher, and have Hebrew taught alongside Arabic in 
public schools?  Done.   Once all that other stuff is accomplished, that 
part is a piece of cake.

And for there to be a "secular, democratic" political system,  that system 
necessarily will be socialist.

If, however,  you're referring to the the type of deal struck by de Klerk, 
Botha with Mandela, then preserving "cultural identity" of the minority is a 
non-issue at best, a joke at worst, as the economic and social power of the 
minority has been preserved.

On another note, while I appreciate Dennis' sentiment when he defines 
"self-determination" as when the oppressed nation makes decision concerning 
its status without feeling the need.....,"  I believe the argument is at 
core, inadequate and faulty.

First, what Marvin was getting at was a tactical accommodation and whether 
such accommodate was necessary to accomplish the revolutionary goal.

Secondly, there is no such thing, as you all know is IMO, as an oppressed 
nation by and for itself.  The "national"  appearance, manifestation, 
moment, is simply the preliminary expression of the essential class struggle 
that is at the heart of the matter.  There are oppressed peoples, but even 
there and then, emancipation depends on class-conscious struggle.

Thirdly, even at their most "respectful," "no interference" times, the 
Bolsheviks after conquering power had no trouble whatsoever absolutely 
intervening in the struggles of "oppressed nations," and dictating to 
militants in those countries what decisions and actions should be taken.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marv Gandall" <marvgandall at videotron.ca>
To: "David Schanoes" <sartesian at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors

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