[Marxism] self determination for oppressors

S. Artesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Sun Oct 18 22:59:29 MDT 2009

I wish I could say it's been a while since I've read such a heartfelt, 
soul-stirring, homage to reformism as Marvin's, but unfortunately I hear it 
all too frequently.

First, a correction to what Marvin writes:   "I'd be surprised if you really 
viewed the fall of apartheid "as a non-issue  at best, a joke at worst".

Marvin has a bit of trouble with what people actually write, and he tends to 
get things a bit twisted.

I never wrote that the fall of apartheid is a non-issue or a joke.  What I 
wrote was that if Marvin was referring to the "deal" between Palestinian 
Arabs and the Jewish workers in occupied Palestine as a "compromise" along 
the lines of the deal in South Africa, then "preserving cultural identity of 
the minority is a...joke."  Preserving the cultural identity of 
theAfrikaners in South Africa is a non-issue or a joke, because the deal 
that was cut was a deal to preserve the economic, class power of the 
minority, not the right to speak Afrikaner.  No such deal can create the 
"democratic, secular" Palestine  Marvin desires, because those deals 
preserve and extend the economic power and privilege of the minority through 
the process of "accommodation."

No, I don't consider the end of apartheid a joke-- never said any such 
thing-- but the sort of Mandela-de Klerk deal does not bring democracy, or 
secularism, or socialism.

Regarding the history of the ANC and the struggle in South Africa, Marvin 
would do well to look at the COST of the deal to the struggle in South 
Africa-- what was lost in terms of the prospects for revolution.  Does 
anyone think the Afrikaners made this deal out of the goodness of their 
hearts; a sudden burst of Christian morality?  The deal was made for 
economic reasons-- greater access to the world markets; eliminate the 
considerable financial burdens of running an apartheid state; and most 
importantly pre-empting the possibility of actual revolution and 
expropriation of property by a movement who's real strength was in the 
organizations of the miners and workers.  And that cost is being paid right 
now in the deteriorating conditions for those living in the townships.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marv Gandall" <marvgandall at videotron.ca>
To: "David Schanoes" <sartesian at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors

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