[Marxism] self determination for oppressors

S. Artesian sartesian at earthlink.net
Mon Oct 19 08:43:36 MDT 2009

I have no doubt that at a certain point, at a specific moment, such 
compromises would be viewed by many if not all Palestinians as a victory. 
There's nothing new, different, or particularly unexpected about that. 
Didn't the Russian masses initially give their wholehearted support to the 
February revolution?  Didn't the soviets at one time pass declarations of 
support for the provisional government?  Right, right I know this isn't 
Russia, but that's not my point.  My point is that the issue is not the 
popularity, or the advance of  liberalization, and progressive 

Such compromises measure the weakness, insecurity, instability, incapacity 
of the bourgeoisie to maintain their property in the "old manner."

The issue of course is-- what's next?  What happens after the compromise?

And Marvin, there's a much bigger issue in this discussion:

At outset I thought you were advocating "democratic"  "cultural" "rights" 
for the Jewish workers who join with the Palestinian workers, rural and 
urban poor in the struggle against the existence of a Zionist capitalist 
state.  Now it appears you are advocating, or at least tacitly approving 
such compromise with the Zionists while at the same time talk about such 
compromise dismantling the Zionist state.  No such dismantling will occur 
under your scenario, just as no such dismantling of the South African state, 
no such disempowerment, expropriation of the white South African bourgeoisie 
has occurred since 1994.

Truth be told, comrade, you are falling victim to the Afrikaners version of 
the US myth of the "new South."  No such new South exists.  Certainly 
African-Americans can be elected to public office, attend integrated 
schools-- where segregation is based on wealth instead of color; certainly 
lynchings and physical assaults on African-Americans have been reduced.  But 
the economic structure that sooner or later depends on that physical 
oppression, that ability to attack the labor and the existence of 
African-Americans, remains in tact and unaltered in essence.  And that time 
of sooner or later is more sooner than later.   Underneath those 3 button 
suits, those Dockers, those J Crew boat shoes, there's a robe and a hood 
just waiting for the right moment.  Bet on it.

As for the "negotiated end" to Israeli apartheid-- what do you think it 
would be-- unalloyed triumph?  Was the February Revolution an unalloyed 
triumph-- or was it a desperate compromise, an attempt to preserve private 
property and pre-empt the workers' organization of their own class power?

Whatever I, Dennis and Andy would do if such compromise did exist,  well... 
I'd be in good company..

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marv Gandall" <marvgandall at videotron.ca>
To: "David Schanoes" <sartesian at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors

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