[Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
nmgoro at gmail.com
Sat Sep 5 21:07:44 MDT 2009
Look, Kosslof, if you think the Montoneros were in any way on Perón´s
"left", as most standard "leftists" in Arg believe, then you are so
far away from Marxism that, as I guessed, it is pointless to discuss
any of these issues with you.
2009/9/5 XxxxXxxx XxYyXxx <xxxxxxx99 at xxxxxxx.xxx>:
> Nestor: I agree with all that Lueko has answered you
> Re: what is all that that he ‘has answered’?, he asked me a question, if I have anything to add to the little detail that the Chinese bureaucracy personifies the interests of capital, I assume he then acknowledges that that’s in fact the role of the CCP, am I right Lueko?,
> Nestor: XxxxXxxx you ignorant
> Re: Nestor shows the level of his dialectical materialism once more and addresses me personally –“puteando”: throwing insult- before replying to my claim made two posts ago: that his comments so far implicitly take the consciousness of commodity producers as determined outside the sphere of capital accumulation, that is, as abstract consciousness,… do any of the Nestor’s posts mention value, relative surplus-value, methods of production in China?, do any of Nestor’s posts talk about how workers are separated from the conditions of production, capital is accumulated, in China? Not so far. Hence, unless we understand capital in the same terms of bourgeois political economy, the determinations of consciousness have not been addressed by Nestor -lest you think Marx wrote Capital because he was masturbating-, instead he proceeds to falsely S.Artesian's claim, which is the one my intervention started with: him saying the CCP ‘uses’ capitalism to build socialism, this was Nestor a few posts ago:
> 'It is one thing
> to _use_ capitalism, and a different one to _bow_ to capitalism. The
> whole thing when it comes to the China debate is whether the Chinese
> leadership _uses_ capitalism or _bows_ to it, which implies bowing to
> imperialism. China is not doing the latter. Doing the former, of
> course, entails the most serious risks. '
> Nestor: I would add a single question:
> Re: As for the <<three>> questions below…
> Nestor: (a) what were the interests and desires
> of Arg workers that Peron, as you bluntly and automatically parrot,
> Re: Well Nestor, this might just be me masturbating here, but as I take it from the Communist Manifesto, the interests of Argentinean workers run parallel to the interests of workers around the world: the overthrow of capital. Now I suppose you mean specific issues, how Peron exterminated Montoneros, how he was a closet fascist, how he sold out YPF, how he opened the gates to the dictatorship which came after his terms? But may I kindly request you answer my question first, because I think the objective issues (capitalism, for only then can we begin to clear up how these interests have been betrayed) are a tad more important than ideological polemic, again, you wouldn’t want anyone to think that you’re just hiding behind your dialectical mantle in order to ensconce your evasion.
> Nestor: And (b) who are you, what is the stool you stand up on to define what
> were, are or will ever be the interests of Arg workers?
> Re: See above
> Nestor: That is, who do you think you are, XxxxXxxx?
> Re: That’s a nice question to masturbate over, let me do that and get back atcha.
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