[Marxism] Fwd: Ahmadinejad holocaust denial discussion on marxmail

Thomas Bias biastg at embarqmail.com
Mon Sep 21 12:16:56 MDT 2009

> Concerning this slogan,"Not Gaza, Not Lebanon, We Will Die for  
> Iran," Dennis, I have had extensive discussion with Abbas Goya of  
> the Worker-Communist Party of Iran. According to Abbas, this is  
> indeed what people were chanting, and he defends it. I tried to  
> explain the concept of unconditional support to an anti-imperialist  
> struggle while not giving political support to its leadership.  
> Understand that these comrades are quite young and somewhat  
> inexperienced. I'm not sure how well-read they are: for example,  
> Abbas claimed that Lenin was "anti-capitalist, not anti- 
> imperialist." Clearly, he is unaware of the RSDLP's and Bolsheviks'  
> support to anticolonial struggles going on at the turn of the  
> 19th-20th century, nor has he read "Imperialism: the Highest Stage  
> of Capitalism." He takes a rather Luxemburgist position on the  
> national question, probably unaware of what Luxemburg herself had  
> to say.
> As is so often the case with youthful revolutionists, their hearts  
> get way ahead of their heads. They see this great struggle going on  
> before their eyes, and it is indeed a historic and inspiring thing  
> to see. However, they are less inclined to take a sober and cool- 
> headed look at the political pitfalls that could potentially derail  
> their movement. This is inexperience more than anything. I am  
> trying to keep a dialogue with him and other WCPI comrades going  
> and keeping it from degenerating into a flame war. So far it is  
> working. Whether it will have a positive effect remains to be seen.
> Tom
> On Sep 21, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Dennis Brasky wrote:
>> Louis Proyect's post of Juan Cole article
>> http://www.juancole.com/2009/09/ahmadinejad-spews-raving-lunatic- 
>> anti.html
>> Andy Pollack -
>> I checked Juan Cole's site first thing after reading the Times  
>> account
>> to see if once again Ahmedinejad had been mistranslated. I checked it
>> again after Louis posted this link and it's been updated. Cole is
>> still furious at him but has modified some of his earlier  
>> conclusions.
>> On a directly related note: the mainstream media is claiming his
>> opponents were chanting "Not Gaza, Not Lebanon, We Will Die for  
>> Iran,"
>> at the Al Quds Day protests. To chant that at all, and especially on
>> Al Quds Day, is so deeply reactionary. And I'm sure some will say,
>> with some justification, that it's akin to the way citizens of
>> Stalinist states began to resent their regimes' official
>> anti-imperialism. But explaining reactionary behavior doesn't make it
>> any less so.
>> Louis Proyect -
>> This is rather puzzling to me. Of all the issues that divide the
>> government and the opposition, support for Gaza and Lebanon would  
>> appear
>> to be the least controversial. Not that Ahmadinejad has offered  
>> much in
>> the way of support for the Palestinians to begin with. Lebanon  
>> must be a
>> reference to Hizbollah but again it is not clear what the chants are
>> supposed to mean. Does the mass movement in Iran really get worked up
>> over Hizbollah?
>> AP -
>> Louis is right, it is puzzling.
>> On a related front, see
>> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? 
>> cid=1253198161088&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>> for an account of how archZionist Stewart Appelbaum has broadened out
>> his anti-Iran campaign to rope in the NAACP, AFL-CIO, J Street, and
>> Americans for Peace Now.
>> NYers should steer way clear of Thursday's rally.
>> Mark Lause -
>> The most obvious explanation is that such stories are planted. It  
>> certainly
>> wouldn't be the first time.
>> LP -
>> Here's the first couple of paragraphs of the report on the speech  
>> at an
>> official Iranian website http://www.president.ir/en/?ArtID=17832.
>> Clearly we are dealing with a first-class schmuck:
>> President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Friday that the Holocaust  
>> black
>> box should be opened.
>> Addressing Tehrani Friday prayers worshipers as pre-sermon lecturer,
>> President Ahmadinejad said, “Our call over the past four years has  
>> been
>> if the Holocaust claimed by the Zionist regime and its allies is  
>> true,
>> why they (Zionists and westerners) do not allow any research on it?”
>> President Ahmadinejad said research on everything is free but  
>> Holocaust
>> is the key to a sealed fact and black box.
>> ML -
>> To clarify, I didn't mean that the stories about Ahmadinejad were  
>> plants,
>> but the stories about what the opposition was chanting. Until we  
>> see a tape
>> of it...I'd be skeptical. As we know, the US particularly tends to  
>> shape
>> these oppositions to something usable...and perceptions of those  
>> oppsoitions
>> in particular to something usable.
>> LP -
>> This is the explanation I got from the Revolutionary Flower Pot  
>> blogger
>> whose word I trust implicitly. In his latest post at
>> http://revolutionaryflowerpot.blogspot.com/, he called attention  
>> to the
>> slogans that had been raised and which he supported:
>> • "Ey daad az in jenaayat: Ghazeh biyaa hemaayat!" (Woe be upon this
>> crime: Gaza come to our support!);
>> • "Ahmadi-ye terrorist; farqhe to baa Sharon chist?" (You terrorist
>> Ahmadi[nejad]; what's your difference with Sharon?);
>> • "Iran shodeh Felesteen; mardom cheraa neshasteen?" (Iran's become
>> Palestine; why are people sitting around?);
>> • "Na Ghazeh, na Lobnaan; jaanam fadaaye Iran!" (Neither Lebanon nor
>> Gaza; I'll give my life for Iran!).
>> When I asked him if the last slogan could be interpreted as  
>> reactionary,
>> he wrote in reply:
>> Hi Louis,
>> When looked at in isolation, I personally find the slogan too
>> nationalistic, and not very wise, politically speaking. However,  
>> in the
>> context of all the other slogans that were also raised
>> (indicating/declaring openly that the Iranian people and the
>> Palestinians are on the same side), I am a bit reassured that the  
>> real
>> sharp point of the slogan, addressed to the coup regime, runs  
>> something
>> like this:
>> _You, Ahamdinejad-Khamenei coup regime, are saying we the Iranian  
>> people
>> should remain slaves and/or die or at your hands, or die of  
>> torture in
>> your prisons, so that you can pose as a pro-Palestinian bunch.  
>> But, we
>> will die instead for OUR own rights and for our right to be free  
>> of your
>> brutality, which is exactly the same as the Israeli's!
>> Like everything social, this one too is very multi-sided and  
>> should not
>> be taken in isolation. Anyway ... That's how I see it.

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