[Marxism] Repeatedly misquoting Achcar :-(

Greg McDonald gregmc59 at gmail.com
Sun Aug 28 09:23:31 MDT 2011

It is also important to frame the "numbers game" within the context of
Achcar's larger argument. The following paragraph from Achcar's
article demonstrates why the numbers are important, Paddy's
remonstrations notwithstanding:

"One must compare the civilian casualties that resulted from NATO
strikes with the potential civilian casualties that they prevented
through limiting the firepower of Gaddafi’s forces towards rebel-held
populated areas.  There is no question in my mind that, even after all
these months of NATO bombing, civilian casualties resulting from it
remain much less than what they would have been had Benghazi been
occupied by Gaddafi’s troops and the insurrection subdued in the whole
country.  That said, the fact that NATO decided to continue its
bombing over a long period, the fact that they tried to hijack the
Libyan insurrection and control it by controlling the pace of events
while refusing to give the Libyans the means to counter effectively by
themselves Gaddafi’s forces’ superior firepower, the fact that NATO
imposed itself as a full participant in the war since its initial
phase, all this of course increased the number of civilians killed by
NATO bombing.  Now if the number of civilians killed by NATO were the
only consideration for opposing its continued intervention, anyone
could tell me since I am advocating the delivery of weapons to the
insurgents as an alternative, that had the civil war carried on longer
and with heavier weapons in the insurgents’ hands, it might have led
to more civilians killed.  That’s quite possible indeed, but the issue
here is clearly a matter of speculation, not certainty.  What is most
important is to be aware of NATO’s designs to impose its will on the
Libyan people through its intervention, and to uphold the people’s
right to self-determination.  It is the Libyans themselves who have
consistently and insistently requested weapons from the beginning in
order to fight their own war."


On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Lenin's Tomb
<leninstombblog at googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 28/08/2011 15:52, Jeff wrote:
>> At 15:43 28/08/11 +0100, Lenin's Tomb wrote:
>>> .....
>>> I'm afraid the silliness is entirely on your side.  I did not allege
>>> that Achcar had written the article, as you
>> No you didn't, you conveniently placed those unattributed quotations in a
>> discussion about what Achcar had claimed, didn't address the fact that he
>> had NOT made such claims, and allowed the reader to draw the incorrect
>> conclusion NOT about the number of deaths but about the credibility of a
>> fellow leftist. Disgusting.
> You are behaving absurdly, and I don't think Achcar would thank you for your
> style of advocacy.  I shall explain this one more time, for absolute
> clarity.
> 1) Greg sought the source of Achcar's 10k figure from the NLP editors.  He
> was provided with a wikipedia entry.
> 2) That wikipedia entry sourced an IRIB article attributing it to the ICC,
> as noted in Greg's message which I quoted and responded to.
> 3) In order to demonstrate the quality of this source, I quoted the IRIB
> article and provided the link so that others could check it.  I also
> provided further context on the same claim from another news article, again
> providing the link.
> 4) In so doing, I demonstrated that the figure cited by Achcar - and, as you
> yourself inadvertently pointed out, attributed by him to the ICC - was both
> misattributed and implausible.
> I doubt that, if pressed, Achcar would defend his claim.  I am certain that
> he would not descend to the sort of graceless and obtuse hysterics that you
> just have.

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