[Marxism] Venezuela

Nick Fredman nick.fredman at optusnet.com.au
Tue Dec 11 16:18:37 MST 2012

On 11/12/12 6:16 PM, "Gregory Adler" <gregadler502 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I remember a Socialist Alliance event a few years back at which DSP
> supporters were screaming in my face
> demanding that i declare my position on Venezuela and Chavez. I attempted
> to reply in terms similar to Louis
> but not as articulately and quite as fully formed as he puts it here. I was
> also disadvantaged by the excited figures jumping up and down in front of
> me and the sprays of spiitle that came from their demands...

> The recent news on Chavez' health is bad and raises a danger to his
> achievements. The defence of them is not helped by demands of declaration
> of "socialist or not" whether the motives of the demander are a sort of
> maximum Chavism  or
> Simon simple revolutionism that requires pure socialism before offering
> support.

Greg your silly caricature of debate in Socialist Alliance isn't helpful
either. People who actually know anything about Latin America know that the
most knowledgeable and careful commentators in Australia have for the past
decade and more been those associated with SA and Green Left such as Fred
Fuentes, Stuart Munckton and Tamara Pearson or those associated with SA when
Greg pretends he had such a terrible time such as Roberto and Jorge

On the substantive issue there's of course a big distinction between a
socialist government, and the gains in the material position and social and
economic power of workers, peasants and the poor it has facilitated,
including important experiments of workers managements of nationalised
industries and of communal democracy, and the possibility of anything like a
socialist society in a single relatively underdeveloped country. Such a
contradiction can't continue indefinitely and apart from generalities like
building the mass organisations and movements and trying to replace the
capitalist state with a new "commune" state, each particular step in trying
to manage the contradiction in the interests of our side probably isn't so
immediately obvious especially from afar.

What the ultra-left on this question such as the person who started this
thread never answer or possibly even consider is what they would do
differently if part of a such workers government in charge of such a
capitalist state and economy. 

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