[Marxism] Awesome Proletarian Positions

Andrew Pollack acpollack2 at gmail.com
Fri Apr 5 17:51:49 MDT 2013


Comrades, I think we have completely lost track of the initial debate.

Louis and Angelus made some generally correct observations about the
 current lack of working-class consciousness, and -- it seemed to me --
extrapolated from that to deny the importance or possibility of such
consciousness, because they wanted to defend Richard Estes' piece in North
Star. I cited (and have cited previously) positions by anarchists,
autonomists and debt obsessionistas who have no interest in the working
class (although others of them do have a great interest), and argued that
in the face of this denial we have a responsibility to maintain our
historic positions on the importance  of the working class.

The core issue remains: does working in a working class job -- whether
factory, school, hospital, domestic work, whatever -- provide the potential
for a different kind of consciousness? If so, should a revolutionary
organization try to develop that consciousness? Does that consciousness, if
fully developed, enable the working class to take power and remold society?

That basic sociological conception, that core of the Manifesto, is ALL
that's up for discussion -- not how Cannon or Cochran or Shachtman applied
it.

Andy P.


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Louis Proyect <lnp3 at panix.com> wrote:

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> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
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>
> On 4/5/13 7:40 PM, turbulo at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Is this you?
>>
>> Jim Creegan
>> Biography
>>
>> Jim Creegan was chairman of the Penn State chapter of Students for a
>> Democratic Society (SDS) in the 1960s, lectured in philosophy in the
>> 70s, belonged to the Spartacist League in the 80s, was a leading member
>> of the International Bolshevik Tendency and a union shop steward during
>> the late 80s and 90s. He lives in New York City, now unaffiliated but
>> unresigned.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Yes, this is me! How many people of my name do you think inhabit the
>> Marxist left?
>> You have also noticed that my views are not entirely discontinuous. Some
>> of your views
>> (e.g. regarding Cuba abd Castro) also "make sense" in light of your
>> political past. But, instead
>> of trying to reduce me to my own past, how about attempting to answer
>> some of
>> the arguments I make, including my claim that your rendering of the 1940
>> fight in
>> the SWP contains certain factual inaccuracies?
>>
>>
> It is a waste of time for me to argue with someone who spent a decade or
> so in the Spartacist League and the International Bolshevik Tendency. I
> congratulate you that you are no longer a member but I am afraid that your
> take on the Cannon-Shachtman fight is straight out of the Spartacist League
> canon.
>
> Just to put this into some kind of context, I regard CLR James as the
> greatest Marxist thinker to come out of the Trotskyist movement after
> Trotsky's death.
>
> James went with Shachtman so what does that say?
>
>
>
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