[Marxism] ukraine

Louis Proyect lnp3 at panix.com
Tue Apr 22 12:03:35 MDT 2014

On 4/22/14 1:42 PM, turbulo at aol.com wrote:
> How does the above make anything I wrote "baloney"? It seems to support
> my observations about a split between the corporate and Tea Party wings
> of the Republicans.

Well, the CPGB put a heading on it that stated the Tea Party was 
"threatening the interests of capitalism itself." This, of course, is 
absurd. If you understand that it is absurd, I have no beef.

> And perhaps Louis, who dismisses all attempts to expose the hand of the
> US and EU in Kiev as denying agency to the "masses" of Maidan in favor of "geopolitical" explanations,
> would care to give us his take on the Russian-speaking "masses" of Donetsk. Do they possess
> any independent agency, or are they, as the State Department and Obama claim,
> mere pawns in Putin's territorial game? Can their actions, in other words, be explained mainly
> in terms of "geopolitics"? If not, why is their "mass movement" any less legitimate than
> that of Ukranian nationalists?

You really need to go back and read that article I posted about the 
Bolsheviks and how they screwed up in the Ukraine. As a pull-quote, the 
1989 article demonstrated how not much has changed:

"It [the Bolshevik-backed party] formed a Soviet republic in the mining 
and industrial region of Donetsk-Kryvyi Rih, including the Donbas, with 
the aim of incorporating it into Russia. This republic, its leaders 
proclaimed, was that of, a Russian proletariat “which does not want to 
hear anything about some so-called Ukraine and has nothing in common 
with it”. This attempted secession could count on some support in 
Moscow. The Skrypnyk government had to fight against these tendencies of 
its Russian comrades, for the sobornist’ of the Soviet Ukraine within 
the national borders set, through the Central Rada, by the national 
movement of the masses."


For people like you, John Rees, the Marcyites, Boris Kagarlitsky, et al, 
there is no national question. Lenin compared the Ukraine to Ireland. It 
was a colony of the Czars and afterwards of the USSR during the "heroic 
days" of the Comintern. The great Bolshevik Christian Rakovsky said that 
there was no such thing as a Ukrainian nation. That territory was simply 
destined to be part of the Great Russian experiment in building socialism.

Donetsk was always a Russian enclave. As I pointed out in one of my 
articles, the men who worked the mines and those who managed them were 
ethnic Russians. Plus, as Putin pointed out--and he was correct--it was 
not part of the historic Ukraine. It became part when the Bolsheviks 
decided that it made no difference since the Ukraine was effectively 
being absorbed by the USSR.

It is pointless to debate these issues with you since you have 
absolutely no awareness of the national question. You are one of those 
advocates of imperial economism who Lenin denounced in 1920. After his 
death, of course, Stalin was free to push ahead with the national 
domination that continues today under Putin's firm hand.

More information about the Marxism mailing list