[Marxism] Whither Ukraine? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Andrew Pollack acpollack2 at gmail.com
Fri Feb 28 07:08:24 MST 2014


Clay, you should finish reading it. Some of the best stuff is in the second
half. And to be fair, many of your posts are pretty darned long :)

Here's another analysis and references:
http://resistancephl.com/2014/02/28/events-in-ukraine-what-do-they-mean-links/

Wish we had Ivan Dzyuba's book online!

Anyone read either of these?

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Affirmative_Action_Empire.html?id=rdlSX2hsb1kC

http://www.red-thread.org/en/article.asp?a=39



On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:22 PM, Clay Claiborne <clayclai at gmail.com> wrote:

> ======================================================================
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
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>
> On 02/27/2014 11:21 AM, Louis Proyect wrote:
> > ======================================================================
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> >
> > By Marilyn Vogt-Downey, the SWP's expert Sovietologist back in the day.
> >
> > http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/27/wither-ukraine/
> >
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> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
> I can't read this stuff. It is so long winded as cover for it tricks of
> writing and logic. For example, in service of its basic premise that
> once again, this is not a popular revolution but just another
> imperialist orchestrated counter-revolutionary "regime change", and the
> people in the streets are its puppets or worst, it makes the provocative
> statement:
> > This counterrevoloutionary attempt is not being carried out by a
> > military invasion or heavy weaponry--although surely some of the
> > roughnecks in ski masks wielding weapons throughout Western Ukraine,
> > occupying and destroying buildings, throwing molotov cocktails, and
> > setting fires were paid agents of the imperialist powers. **
> So I scroll down to see what source backs up this claim of imperialist
> agents in the crowd. That's when I find out how long this piece is and
> realize that if I try to finish it, I will miss happy hour at the
> Waterfront. For my troubles I find this:
> >
> > **Anyone who has attended a peaceful protest knows to beware of masked
> > individuals who break from the crowd and begin breaking windows,
> > setting fires, attacking police, etc. all of which only serve to
> > provoke police attacks, transforming the character of the action, and
> > endangering protesters.
> >
> > Such persons are usually suspected of being provocateurs.
> >
> > The success of this project, and similar recent projects show that
> > imperialist domination no longer requires "traditional armies.
> >
> There is absolutely no proof or even concrete allegation there. There is
> no there there. You aren't suppose to check it, just see it as you read
> and assume a footnote that backs up the allegation with something other
> than more conjecture. It's a fake out! There is no intellectual honesty
> there. That is why I find I have less and less time for stuff like this
> Counterpunch crap.
>
> Now I think I'll go get a beer.
>
> Clay
>
> --
> Clay Claiborne, Owner
> Cosmos Engineering Co. <http://CosmosEng.com/>
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