[Marxism] Article on Borotba

A.R. G amithrgupta at gmail.com
Tue Jan 20 16:26:16 MST 2015

That definition is completely false. For one, there are plenty of Christian
Zionists and the early Zionists themselves were in many cases
non-religious. It also ignores a long history of Zionism among
anti-Semites. For another, saying that "Jews need a homeland" is a far cry
from establishing one by forced (and ongoing) ethnic cleansing of Palestine
to create and maintain a settler-colony, which has been the intention of
Zionists since the days of Jabotinsky and Ben Gurion.

The world is not "post-Zionist," even by your own strange definition.
Furthermore, recognizing that a solution to the Zionist catastrophe upon
Palestine could allow Israelis to continue living there is hardly the same
as maintaining their "new nation" -- or reducing those who disagree or
demand their exile to "anti-Semites". The rejection of the presence of
Israeli settler-colonists in all of Palestine, even if it isn't realistic
or a particularly good solution, does not amount to racism, any more than
indigenous groups in America demanding the exile of present-day Americans
is "racist". In both cases the opposition is based on rejection of the
settler-colony, not the race/religion of the colonists. Again, I don't
agree with such proposals and I think those proposals are motivated more by
anti-colonial outrage than practicality, but it doesn't make such people
into "anti-Semites" as the AWL would have you believe.

The AWL is a Zionist group and the only way you can say otherwise is by
redefining Zionism. Furthermore, if "Zionist" means "Jew" on some level to
you then are you repeating the propaganda of both Zionists and
anti-Semites. Why on earth would it matter to you whether or not the AWL is
Jewish? Does that make their horrific beliefs more acceptable? Or less

- Amith

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Sergii Kutnii <mnkutster at gmail.com> wrote:

> A Zionist organisation, in my view, would be the one
> 1) identifying itself as Jewish
> 2) proclaiming that Jews need a homeland for them.
> AWL, as far as I know, does not meet the condition 1.
> The problem is, we live in a post-Zionist situation where an entire
> new nation of Israelis has been created and there have been a couple
> of generations of Israelis having no other home.
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 12:50 AM, A.R. G <amithrgupta at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So read their pamphlets then. Honestly, what do you have to do to count
> as a
> > Zionist organization? Do you have to regurgitate Israeli nationalist
> > historiography about the 1948 war? Check. Do you have to reduce
> anti-Israel
> > sentiment to anti-Semitism? Check. Do you have to claim that left-wing
> > anti-Zionism is little more than latent Stalinism (like the kind that
> > supports Syria or Iran)? Check. Do you have to exploit the Holocaust to
> > portray Zionist settlers as little more than victims? Check. Do you have
> to
> > accuse boycotters of being genocidal in their intentions? Check. Do you
> have
> > to portray Zionism as a reaction to anti-Semitism, rather than an
> extension
> > of it? Check. Do you have to witch-hunt left groups that rally against
> the
> > massacre(s) in Gaza, as though they are unfairly "singling out" the
> regime
> > occupying Palestine? Check.
> >
> > They are the embodiment of the failure of some groups on the "left" to
> > engage racism and colonialism properly, as the Charlie Hebdo fiasco has
> > shown us. They have taken their own misplaced, ahistoric concerns about
> > anti-Semitism and decided to impose those concerns onto any kind of
> > meaningful campaign against Zionism, whether by leftists, Muslims,
> whoever,
> > as well as Muslims more generally. They have taken up the same garbage
> line
> > as The Militant. And they are, in my view, leftists in name only. If the
> > "left" includes people who peddle Israeli propaganda and stigmatize
> > anti-Zionism then I'll gladly step outside of it.
> >
> > - Amith
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Sergii Kutnii via Marxism
> > <marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >>
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> >>
> >> Well, identifying AWL - a British organisation not trying even to
> >> build an interantional - as Zionists is something jaw-dropping to me.
> >>
> >> i think the ones making such accusations should provide evidence about
> >> AWL's link to Israel or maybe its continuity with historical Zionist
> >> organisations. AWL disagreeing with someone in the Western left on the
> >> approach towards the Israeli-Arab conflict is certainly not enough to
> >> classify them as Zionists for me.
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