[Marxism] Qaddafi's Libya as paragon of democracy

Andrew Pollack acpollack2 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 22 09:02:10 MDT 2015

bravo Clay and Louis
here's the link to the Times article which was so flagrantly misquoted:
If that doesn't work I could post the text here.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> Mummar Gaddafi use to have rallies in Green Square with well over a million
> supporters until I made him stop.
> That may be a bit of hyperbole. These are the facts: Qaddafi claimed 3
> rallies in Green Sq. on June 17, July 1 & 8 2011 at which he claimed he had
> 1.7 million supporters. After I published  Tripoli Green Square Reality
> Check
> <
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/19/996082/-Tripoli-Green-Square-Reality-Check
> >
> on July 19th showing there was no way Green Sq could hold that many people,
> and it was widely circulated by the Libyan Youth Movement among others,
> Gaddafi never made that claim again. I consider it one of my most
> significant contributions to their revolution.
> Naturally, all the "anti-imperialists" were promoting these rallies as
> proof of Gaddafi's popular support. I write in that:
> Now others reporting
> > <https://www.blogger.com/2011/07/qaddafi-million-man-march_843.html> on
> > these pro-Qaddafi protests have estimated much lower numbers for these
> > crowds, in the range of 10,000 to 30,000. It has also been said that the
> > majority of those in attendance had some relation to Qaddafi security
> > forces, approximately 10% of the Libya population has such an
> association.
> > It threatened
> > <
> https://www.blogger.com/2011/07/behind-green-curtain-libya-today_1981.html
> >
> > if they failed to show up.
> >
> 2 selections from my
> http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2011/07/behind-green-curtain-libya-today_1981.html
> posted to the Free Generation Movement facebook page
> <
> http://www.facebook.com/notes/the-free-generation-movement-%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1/the-story-of-the-bread-queue/120242798070348
> >
> this morning, July 18, 2011 at 6:17am
> Today, at a queue for bread in Janzour, I witnessed the following.
> Production was slow and the queue was getting longer. The owner of the
> bread store came out, apologised and told those waiting that due to fuel
> shortage his machines were working at 50%. He urged people to just buy
> bread for ¼ dinar and then come back later for more. He said there was also
> a flour shortage so urged, again, for people to be economical.
> One women shouted *“it’s not your flour, its Moamers flour, who are you to
> ration it?”*
> The people in the queue were visibly angered by this comment and one man
> shouted *“and do you think your moamer carry the flour here on his back?”*
> She fell silent but immediately made a phone call.
> Minutes later people whispered in the man’s ear to leave as she is a well
> known revolutionary committee member and loud mouth. He disappeared into
> the side streets moments before uncountable security trucks turned up with
> armed men.
> The men demanded that the shop owner tell them who the *“traitor”* was. The
> shop owner said that he was just a customer and can’t remember just a
> single person from hundreds of daily customers.
> The security chief said to him *“Either tell us who he is, or we close this
> place down”.* The man bravely stood tall and said
> *“Close it, but if you want me to give you details about a man I do not
> know then you are delusional”. A symbol of defiance from a man standing in
> a queue. A symbol of nepotism by one woman who thinks she can say and do as
> she pleases because of who she knows. A symbol of intimidation by security
> forces enforcing jungle law. You cant even speak your mind in a bread
> queue, and then Saif AlGaddafi says “we will have elections”. On what
> planet do these people live?*
> *1.7 million rally for Qaddafi? Not as it seems! * Now we have another
> video
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWpeQKDCgA> from Qaddafi's massive
> support
> rally in Tripoli on July 8th, 2011. I have already blogged about certain
> questions surrounding this march in my dairy. Now this video from
> libyaresistence <http://www.youtube.com/user/libyaresistance> purports to
> show that many of those in attendance weren't from Tripoli. They write
> <http://feb17.info/news/tripoli-update-july-8th/>:
> Attempts to call on Tripoli residents to abandon local mosques and pray at
> green square back fired for the regime, as attempts were made to show the
> people of Tripoli stood by the “leader”. Local mosques remained open
> despite the call by authorities, and local residents turned out in full to
> pray at their usual mosques in defiance of the regime. The atmosphere was
> visibly positive as it was very apparent that everyone present was making
> an open stand against the regime. The regime amassed another crowd at
> “green square” to rally for their cause. The crowd was not as large as
> previous Friday and FGMovement were in attendance to evaluate the
> situation. See this video for our explanation of the size of the crowd and
> the scenes at the square. Rest assured, people of Libya, the majority of
> the people of Tripoli were nowhere near “Green Square” today.
> in
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/08/992296/-Qaddafi-s-Million-Man-March
> I describe how Gaddafi got people to his rallies:
> Ahmed went missing in Tripoli near the very beginning of the uprising. His
> > family now believes that he was arrested on February 22 and taken to the
> > notorious Adu Salim prison with many others. At the time they assumed he
> > had been shot dead and disappeared by soldiers, mercenaries or one of
> > Qaddafi's security services, like so many others.
> >
> > So when a member of one Qaddafi's revolutionary committees told Ahmed's
> > father, *"We have your son, he is being held at Abu Salim prison. If your
> > family does not come out to demonstrate on Friday you will never see your
> > son again."*, they paid him no never-mind and an extended clan of around
> > 50 adult males and family refused to attend the rally. A few hours after
> > the rally Ahmed's still warm body was dumped outside the family home with
> > two bullets in his head.
> >
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust <http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com>
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach <http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/>
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