[Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

Carl G. Estabrook galliher at illinois.edu
Wed Aug 31 22:09:30 MDT 2016


Your argument is unassailable…

I’m "pro-Stein,” not "pro-Trump"; but I am "anti-war" and "anti-Clinton."

And I’m Marxist the way Chomsky is (although I think he’s wrong about Clinton): 

"I think that the libertarian socialist concepts - and by that I mean a range of thinking that extends from left-wing Marxism through anarchism - are fundamentally correct and that they are the proper and natural extension of classical liberalism into the era of advanced industrial society.” ['Government in the Future,' 1970]

—CGE


> On Aug 31, 2016, at 10:37 PM, Mark Lause <markalause at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You don't buy the standard repackaged Democratic horsecrap and you are "pro-Trump."
> 
> What utter stupidity passes for Marxism!!!!
> 
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism <marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:

> I assume you mean Glen Ford’s piece on Black Agenda Report, which I suggest people read for themselves:
> 
> <http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.blackagendareport.com_trump-5Fanti-2Dempire&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk&s=dwvyqjDVT6bYTeX0YQo_7uOaGqP0mxLeQNJLIgh9zDU&e=> <http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.blackagendareport.com_trump-5Fanti-2Dempire&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk&s=dwvyqjDVT6bYTeX0YQo_7uOaGqP0mxLeQNJLIgh9zDU&e=>>>.
> 
> An appropriate companion piece is <https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2016_06_20_trump-2Das-2Dthe-2Drelative-2Dpeace-2Dcandidate_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk&s=VQomarC4o_Hv4Tzo-A4kUiJlfaH5Zlu12C6M1X4o890&e=> <https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2016_06_20_trump-2Das-2Dthe-2Drelative-2Dpeace-2Dcandidate_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk&s=VQomarC4o_Hv4Tzo-A4kUiJlfaH5Zlu12C6M1X4o890&e=>>>.
> 
> —CGE
> 
> 
> > On Aug 31, 2016, at 9:11 PM, A.R. G <amithrgupta at gmail.com <mailto:amithrgupta at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > The piece you cited does not make a whole lot of sense. The first argument is his position on military bases. Outside of this being an incomparably small token of "isolationism" alongside threats to nuke people, send in ground troops, drones, and his use of torture, all he said was that he would reverse the arrangement such that those countries would be expected to pay the United States, rather than vice versa. He has taken a similar line with NATO. The second argument is that he does not accept the "rhetoric" of nation-building and so on; but even president-elect George W. Bush rejected such rationales during the 2000 election. This only means he is not as interested in sugar-coating such policies with the rhetoric of democracy and universalism. The last line was his "neutrality" rhetoric about Palestine. Even assuming we give that any credibility (one might note that even at the time, Trump combined his statements about "neutrality" with his affirmation that he was pro-Israel, meaning that he simply re-defined "neutral" to mean support for Israel), it has long since been surpassed by his adamant and aggressive support for Israel.
> >
> > It is an incredibly weak piece. The only part of it that even remotely speaks to what is "anti-empire" about Trump's policies is the isolationist rhetoric about US bases in Asia. Given the totality of the policies Trump has elaborated on, from nukes to torture to drones to ground troops, I'm not sure how anyone can see this as proof of any sort of "anti-imperialist" leanings.
> >
> > The Davis piece that I sent out goes into much greater depth about the policies that Trump has actually advocated for. He is as violent as they come.
> >
> > - Amith
> >



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