[Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

A.R. G amithrgupta at gmail.com
Thu Sep 1 11:54:13 MDT 2016

Hi Dennis,

First and foremost, I do not consider Marxism to be a cult. I consider it
to be a modality of analysis. So frankly, I do not give 2 shits whether or
not something "counts" as Marxist -- and judging by the kind of garbage
pail "Marxism" that floats around on leftist websites it looks like I'm not
the only one who isn't very strict about that.

My approach does not betray a lack of confidence in the working class or
the oppressed minorities. My approach lacks confidence in the electoral
designs of the founding fathers and the ability of the Green Party to
overcome them within a very short period of time. I think what Clay wrote
earlier was a reasonable point: why aren't we listening to exactly those
communities you mention, who are right now flocking to Hillary? Is it lost
on everyone that the working class and the oppressed minorities -- even
those who originally had faith in Bernie Sanders -- are now resigned to
Hillary Clinton, assuming they weren't already fawning over her bullshit?
We need a strategy to ensure that those people's most immediate needs --
and one very looming, incredibly grave, and urgent threat to those needs,
embodied in Trump's detailed plans to deport 11 million people and issue
immediate reversals of several limited reforms -- are spoken to.

Right now, the way we can do that is by organizing those movements on the
grassroots level *outside of the elections. *That is what most of us do as
activists. We attend socialist forums, sure. But we also do community
organizing. We work with working class organizations and try to build their
membership. We find people within the working class that do not have the
baggage that bourgeois activists do and see what we can do to assist their
efforts to affect policy. That is what trusting in the power of the masses
looks like. Indeed, you'll notice that the most effective grassroots
movement thus far -- with all its contradictions -- has not endorsed Jill
Stein *or* Hillary Clinton (and certainly not Trump). Black Lives Matter
has recognized that there are no reasonable choices and is attempting to
build a bulwark against racist policies by any of these people through
close connections with the working class (albeit their louder members
appear to be NGO-backed morons from the touchy-feely department). *That* is
what we must do and where we should be looking for leadership.

Somehow, you have managed to extend that faith in the power of the working
class, and particularly marginalized groups within it, to the people who
run in controlled elections. That is, simply put, not our territory. We can
build a party that can meaningfully challenge the dominant parties. But how
can we do it in 2 months? How could we even do it in 2 years? I'd like to
hear a concrete proposal.

- Amith

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Dennis Brasky <dmozart1756 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 1:12 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
> marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>> There is a simple truth that we are deluding ourselves into forgetting: we
>> have already lost the 2016 election. We will not win this round. The focus
>> needs to be on building a resistance to whoever wins in 2016. Is there any
>> serious case that can be made that that resistance -- and our connection
>> with those communities that will lead it -- would be stronger under Donald
>> Trump than under Hillary Clinton? I doubt it. I think we must swallow our
>> pride and admit that if we live in swing states, we are in a bind and will
>> need to vote for the most right-wing president in modern history: Hillary
>> Clinton.
>> I know this will lose me cred on this list but from a tactical standpoint
>> as a socialist I don't see the way around this; I'm of course, welcome to
>> alternative visions provided they pay heed to the position we are in.
>      ...............................
>> reply - You think so?? Labeling oneself a Marxist, one who bases own's
>> political approach on class strugle politics, and employing Marxist
>> phraseology, while looking to "the most right-wing president in modern
>> history" to "save" us from another right-winger -- if it wasn't so damn
>> nauseating, it would be laughable. How did things work out for your
>> political ancestors when they supported Hindenburg in 1932 to "protect" the
>> German Left from the Nazis??
>     Your approach betrays a total lack of confidence in the working class
> and oppressed minorities to fight back against the reactionary and racist
> policies that have been and will continue to be served up by a ruling class
> that finds itself in increasingly dire straits. You look everywhere for a
> "protector" except where Marxists should be looking - to the oppressed
> victims of those policies. If you're right, then we can forget socialism
> and the struggle against all the rottenness in the world - destruction of
> the planet, war, sexism, racism, greed, homophobia - and just turn inwards
> to our own personal lives. I say that you're wrong!

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