[Marxism] Helsinki: Was it "excellent"? Should we care?

John Reimann 1999wildcat at gmail.com
Sat Jul 21 23:15:08 MDT 2018

Well, we simply disagree with our analysis. That's okay. For myself, I
don't see any other way of understanding the extremely strong - in fact,
unprecedented - attacks on Trump, as well as the nature of the attacks.
What does it mean to say he's guilty of "treason", for example? Also, as
I've said over and over again, there are all his financial ties to the
Russian oligarchy.

Yes, I've been wondering too about the basis for the rivalry between the US
and Russia. But I don't think we can explain every inter-imperialist
rivalry in terms of economics. I think the military might of Russia - the
second largest nuclear power in the world among other things - is a factor.
Whether this rivalry can change in the future is a different matter.


On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 7:49 PM, mkaradjis <mkaradjis at gmail.com> wrote:

> Trump may not represent the "mainstream" of the US capitalist class,
> but he definitely represents a strong part of it. He most certainly
> does not represent the Russian capitalist class! I think you went a
> little overboard here John, though I agree with most of your points.
> The "anti-Russia" thing might be good propaganda that a lot of the US
> capitalist class likes due to the traditional role it played for them.
> However, that tradition was from Soviet times. One wing of the US
> capitalist class thinks not only that it continues to be useful
> imperial propaganda, but also that Russia does represent some kind of
> important rival to US imperialism. Another - more forward thinking in
> my opinion - understands that (1) Russia is not the major competitor
> of US imperialism - economically it is too weak, and dependent to an
> overlay large extent on oil/gas for its apparent economic strength; EU
> and Chinese imperialism represent more long-term competitors, even if
> Russia still has a larger military/diplomatic weight, and (2) there is
> nothing at all fundamentally wrong from the point of view of US
> imperialism with allying with Putin's far-right, White-supremacist
> regime which is backing all the same parties throughout Europe and the
> world as is the Trump tendency. It is ironic for those among the
> "anti-Russia" warriors in one wing of US imperialism who might also
> come from the neo-con tradition and are strong supporters of Israel,
> that the Trump-Putin ideological (and I would argue geopolitical) axis
> runs directly via Netanyahu, and in the Arab world, the UAE.
> The identification of part of the left with the Trump view because
> they see it as more in tune with "peace" in the world puts them in
> alliance with far-right forces throughout the West who are racist,
> anti-immigrant, anti-refugee, Islamophobic and, also, pro-Zionist.
> Peace has nothing to do with it at all.
> On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:32 AM, John Reimann via Marxism
> <marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> > ********************  POSTING RULES & NOTES  ********************
> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> > *****************************************************************
> >
> > Mark deals with the heart of the matter, but I think he's mistaken. He
> > writes, "Trump still represents the mainstream of the U.S. ruling class."
> > Consider first the surrounding circumstantial evidence:
> >
> > The mainstream of the US capitalist class had it all planned for Jeb Bush
> > (remember  him?) to be the next president. When that collapsed like a
> house
> > of cards, they moved to Hillary Clinton. Now look at what's happening: We
> > have not seen a US president attacked as Trump is for... Well, maybe not
> > since the pre Civil War days. Who ever heard of the former head of the
> > calling a sitting president "treasonous"? This is only the most blunt of
> > the attacks that are heard every day on CNN, CBS - every channel but Fox.
> > What they mean, of course, is that Trump is not representing their
> > interests, which is what the "national interest" means.
> >
> > Consider Trump's history: He's been a money launderer for the Russian
> > mafia/oligarchs since this criminal gang of capitalists rose to power in
> > that country. He's under their control.
> >
> > It's hard to get our heads wrapped around this fact because it means a
> real
> > break from what we've seen, a transformation in the situation. And it has
> > enormous significance.
> >
> > What does it mean when the mainstream of the capitalist class no longer
> > controls its chief representative? and bear in mind that this chief
> > executive is moving ever closer to one-man rule - that he's got control
> > over the legislative branch and near control over the judicial branch.
> > Bourgeois democracy is predicated on the control of the capitalist class
> > over its government; bonapartism is predicated on a loss of such control.
> > Maybe the US capitalist class mainstream will be able to regain control,
> > either through the Mueller investigation or starting with the November
> > elections. But maybe not, especially if Trump can really fraud November's
> > results.
> >
> > I doubt that anybody on this list thought that Trump would get anywhere
> > near the presidency. (Neither did Trump!) The fact that he did should
> make
> > us step back and reconsider our assumptions, including those we aren't
> > fully conscious of.
> >
> > John Reimann
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 1:40 PM, Mark Lause <markalause at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I think the development if very important as well, though Trump still
> >> represents the mainstream of the U.S. ruling class.  He's not a rogue
> >> actor, though he plays one on TV.
> >>
> >> The American masters engineered the greatest polarization of wealth in
> all
> >> of human history.  We've seen.  We watched it.  We couldn't figure out
> and
> >> implement a plan to prevent it.  No matter.  Trump slapped the icing on
> the
> >> cake with his "tax reform."   I think Trump could pop out of a cake
> naked
> >> in the middle of the Oval Office and the ruling class would be just fine
> >> with it.  He's their fair-haired (or bewigged) boy for the present.  The
> >> fact that the Democrats have been dead useless as an opposition and the
> >> Republicans have cheered him on reflects that.
> >>
> >> More telling, the great American Bullshit about economic prosperity is
> >> pretty much accepted as real and circulated widely.
> >>
> >> His attempt to be of service to Russian oligarchs as well as American
> >> oligarchs doesn't necessarily cause problems for them.  Helsinki caused
> a
> >> brief problem, but the mere show of a walk back pretty much settled
> things.
> >>
> >> . . . for the present, at least.  We now seem to have moved on to
> Playboy
> >> models, payoffs and Cohen tapes.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Mark L.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
> > Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
> > Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/
> options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com

*“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook

More information about the Marxism mailing list